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No problem. But I don't think any of us can say we fully understand what the lake of fire is.
The Bible says it is death.
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(From the other thread) Have you considered that you might have two names, just like Saul/Paul did? Did Saul go into the lake of fire? Was Paul in the book of life?
Saul did not go into the lake of fire. That only takes place "in the Lord's day" which is yet future. Paul is in the book of life.
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Didn't your old man burn up in the lake of fire (or maybe its still smoldering! ).
I may be on fire for the Lord but, naw, not the lake of fire.
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Anyway these are just some random thoughts in my mind - some things to think on Eusebius. I haven't really made up my mind on the whole thing cause I just don't have enough information about the whole process. What I do know for sure is every knee will bow and every tongue will praise God. Peace out...
You really don't see anything wrong with the idea that some people drilled miles down into the surface of the earth and heard people screaming in "hell"?
They can drill down and hear the people, but they didn't bother any rescue attempt?
Actually, it says it's the "second death". What is the first death? Is it having to do with what Paul says, that all men have died in Adam? Is that the spiritual death of humanity? (I tend to think so.)
Then what is the second death? Is it our physical death? (That doesn't seem likely to me, but I could be wrong.) Or is it the death we die to sin when we're baptized into Christ's death? That's what I think, but maybe it's something else altogether.
I don't know if anyone can say exactly what the spiritual fire would be after we die. We know many people will feel shame (Dan 12:2, Isa 45:22-25). Perhaps that will be much of it - feeling shame over all the stupid things you did and said in this life as God shows you everything that happened as a result of every action you ever did. Remember we will all give account... nothing leads to repentance faster than seeing the ramifications of it all clearly in front of your eyes.
Here's another "crazy whacked out" idea - this is just a theory, but I know a few people do believe this to be what scripture is saying. I'm not really too sure myself. Anyway, is this a possibility?:
We are all in the lake of fire right now in this life.
Just something to consider.
Yeah that's interesting that we will feel shame.......sounds like we'll have all the same emotions then as we do now. Somehow I don't think it will be quite that easy. And wow, I'm not looking forward to being shown EVERY LITTLE THING I did or said....maybe that will be enough!!
That is a little whacked out! But it certainly does seem like hell on earth at times.
Or is it the death we die to sin when we're baptized into Christ's death?
That would correlate with Matthew 3:11:
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
The idea concerning Christian Universalism is the only reason I haven't become an Athiest, so it did not lead me astray from the Lord it had the opposite effect that you claim here.
I can see that and what you said here the other's against universalism really need to pay close attention to. Did you hear that guys? It does not lead people astray.......it brings them into a closer relationship with the Lord!! Anything that does that deserves some looking into imo.
But of course there is a contradiction. You say God would like all men to be saved but doesn't want to save all men. Contradiction plain and simple. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
What you really mean is God wants to save men who place their faith in Christ. The rest He doesn't want to save at all, according to your own words here. So it is a contradiction on your part to say that God wants to save all men (according to your own beliefs).
There is no contradiction. God requires man to come to Him through faith in Christ. If man doesn't believe in Christ for salvation then he isn't saved.
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Ok great you acknowledge that no one can come to the knowledge of the truth by themselves! But I must question, if God gives everyone a knowledge of the truth, then how can they reject it? They know it is the truth, since God gave it to them right?
People reject the truth all the time. Every time the Gospel is heard and rejected, it is not because it was not understood, but because the free will of man can reject the truth, just as one third of the entire angelic race chose to rebel against God even though they had been in His presence. And just as in the Millennium there will be many who will reject Christ as Savior even though He is physically on the earth ruling from the throne of David. These people will be deceived by Satan when he is released at the end of the Millennium and will they will attempt a revolt against Christ. Revelation 20:7-10.
Universalists say that everyone will eventually accept Christ, and yet, even though He is on the earth in resurrected body, ruling from the throne of David, people are still going to reject Him. Why? Because many people want nothing to do with God. Many people reject God just as Satan rejected Him in his revolt.
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The obvious problem is that many people die without ever knowing the truth about God.
No one who desires to know the truth about the true God dies without having been given an opportunity to know Him. God gets the Gospel to anyone who has an interest in finding out more about God once they are mentally able to conceive of a supreme being and want to gain an understanding of Him. Those who die without the Gospel never had a desire to know God. The details are known to the omniscience of God.
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Sorry I don't want to go through all this here. But essentially you toe the "party line" that the anti-christ is a final end-times bad guy that will deceive a bunch of people and do some other stuff such as implementing a mark of the beast system that will condemn many people to the lake of fire forever. I disagree with that view point and believe it is a misinterpretation of the scriptures.
Likewise you aren't going to budge on the "forever and ever"/aion/aionios mistranslation controversy. That is fine we have discussed it before. We will just agree to disagree on this point as we see some basic points differently.
As I said, we will just disagree on this because the passages either: (1) don't specify how long someone is in the lake of fire for, or (2) use the words aion/aionios which I believe don't imply an endless period of time.
That's fine. This isn't a debate. I am giving you truth. Whether you accept it or reject it is your affair.
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This is where I take offence. You have no idea what you are talking about here, or what I care about. Your offhandly say "Universalists don't care about people's eternal souls"... excuse me? That is such a cruel and slanderous thing to say.
Universalism openly opposes the truth of the word of God and denies the fact that man's opportunity to be saved exist's only during his time on this earth. There's no telling how many people have been eternally lost because they were foolish enough to be deceived into believing this doctrine of demons. Universalist's promote their cult even at the expense of peoples souls. This is in keeping with Satan's objectives.
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I can just as easily say your cult of eternal torment exists for the purpose of promoting Satan's strategy of deceiving mankind into not recognizing God's love for them.
That is illogical. Satan's goal is to prevent whoever he can from being saved. One way to do that is by convincing people that everyone is going to eventually be saved and so not be concerned about having to get around to believing in Christ for salvation.
Therefore to say that Satan wants to promote the idea of eternity in the lake of fire is just plain contrary to common sense. And to truth.
The Bible states that those in the lake of fire will be in eternal torment. The lie of universalism is that they will not be.
The Bible states that those in the lake of fire will be in eternal torment. The lie of universalism is that they will not be.
Regardless of my lack of belief in heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc... perhaps you can explain to those who do believe in heaven, hell, angels, satan, etc.. why the 4 verses with "lake of fire" in them don't say anything about being humans being in eternal torment...
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