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Old 04-29-2010, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
58,841 posts, read 32,287,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I've taken the time to quote Ilene's post above along with your response.. show me, please, where she states a transformation takes place in hades.... It is absent from her post, I think you are reading between lines that aren't there.
Right here: The rich man had all the same desires as a human.....he just wanted water and he wanted Lazarus to go back and tell his brothers. That tells me that the "old" man was being refined into a "new" creature entirely.

 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:26 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,442,080 times
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It is absolutely arrogant/prideful for one to claim what is and what is not of God.

The disciple's job is to share the "good news" with everyone and do his best to love the most unlovable neighbor() that he/she encounters along the way...then shake off the dust when rejected and allow the seed to grow in HIS TIME.

This is what Jesus admonished his 2x2 disciples to do...

GOOD NEWS:
"FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO THE CROSS AS THE 'ULTIMATE' RANSOM FOR THE SIN OF MANKIND"

Forgive me if this post is off topic?

Isaiah 53:1-12

Blessings...
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,438,525 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I've taken the time to quote Ilene's post above along with your response.. show me, please, where she states a transformation takes place in hades.... It is absent from her post, I think you are reading between lines that aren't there.



I don't believe in what?
Satan? no I don't believe in a horned bad guy out to get humans.
Angels? No, I don't believe in winged fairies that help the Almighty.
God? Yes, I am a theist.
Jesus? Yes, a wonderful example of God's very nature.
Heaven? No, I don't believe in a city on top of the clouds with pearly gates.
Hell? No, I don't believe in a lake of molten fire where humans burn eternally.

So what is it you think I said? (remember there are several Kat's here)



How would belief in satan or not affect how one lives their life?? I am no different than the many who DO believe in satan, except that I don't blame a horned bad guy for the wrongs I commit. My wrongs are my own doing and I am wholly responsible for them.

The other problem I see is that there is no correlation between being saved and being born again. If you think being born again (into eternal life which according to Jesus was knowing God) means you are saved or vice versa then I would appreciate it if you provided some scripture as a reference.

Where does it say that to be saved you must be born again?

Where does it say to be saved you must have eternal life?

Where does it say that if you don't have eternal life you cannot be saved?

Thanks?
Ilene, If you are around would you mind explaining what you meant by "It speaks volumes about how he had not yet been transformed" because I am curious. I think you mean that the story could not be a historical account because of the mix of "human" (or flesh) and an afterlife... something that seems amiss given the other things Jesus has said about heaven, such as like the angels we will not be married.

If not, perhaps you can clear this up for us. Thanks.

BTW I think the misconception of Hades, and thus eternal hell, hinge largely on the interpretation of this parable, so I hope this is not all considered off topic.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
58,841 posts, read 32,287,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Where does it say that to be saved you must be born again?
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" (John 3:3).

How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again

"everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). Surrender your life to God by accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord. Then allow God to begin the process of transforming you into the best man or woman, and best husband or wife, you can be.

If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved (Romans 10:9-10).


And that is what the universlist ignore.

Quote:
Where does it say to be saved you must have eternal life?
Nowhere. Nor have I ever heard anyone make such claim. I think this question demonstrates that you need to study the Bible. If you are saved you have eternal life, eternal life is not a requirement for salvation.

Quote:
Where does it say that if you don't have eternal life you cannot be saved?
Nowhere. Nor have I ever heard anyone make such claim. I think this question demonstrates that you need to study the Bible.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,438,525 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Right here: The rich man had all the same desires as a human.....he just wanted water and he wanted Lazarus to go back and tell his brothers. That tells me that the "old" man was being refined into a "new" creature entirely.
HUH? I've asked Ilene to clarify so I guess we will just have to wait and see. Because I cannot make heads or tails of the above. You said the rich man wanted water like a human...

because it was an awfully hot place, right?

and he wanted to warn those he loved... right?

But he was told he couldn't (for one because he is dead and everyone knows the dead are not reanimated)

Because his brothers (LIKE HIM) wouldn't believe him if they didn't believe JESUS when JESUS stood there and told them (remember context...Jesus is being rejected..right?)

So they are blind. Blinder than bats about the state of their life before it is too late TO GO BACK and tell others what you've learned.

So what is Jesus saying?

DON'T WASTE YOUR LIFE on RICHES that don't have VALUE when you are DEAD! INSTEAD cultivate relationships by LOVING God and others as yourself.

That's the short version, IMO.

So to use this as a proof text for hell is by far the worst exegesis I have ever witnessed. Therefore I have no idea where you get that someone is transformed... they are not transformed from their human needs (for water) that is why it has to be a moral yet FICTIONAL story.

Again... IMO
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:45 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,446 posts, read 29,669,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
We must pray for those who have been deceived.
Yes I am doing that!
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:48 PM
 
37,777 posts, read 25,478,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why bother? Why do I need to see the light before I die if I am saved no matter what?
Because being saved is not the end of it. You will reap what you sow if you are not covered by Jesus' grace in "love of God and each other." You seem a little light in the "love of each other" department.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,438,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" (John 3:3).

How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again

"everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
(Romans 10:13). Surrender your life to God by accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord. Then allow God to begin the process of transforming you into the best man or woman, and best husband or wife, you can be.
Why do you assume that if you are NOT born again or a part of the kingdom that you will not be saved? Saved from what? Saved from sin? Everyone is saved from sin through the blood of the cross, right? All sin... gone.... Finished. So if they don't believe they are saved from sin they will keep sinning... thus not in the kingdom, but yet aren't they still saved from their sin?

Quote:
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved (Romans 10:9-10).
Yes if you do these things you will SURELY be saved from your sin and you will be believing it! But what if you only halfway believe or don't care about believing at all? Does that mean you are not saved from your sin?

Or is this whole thing (in your mind) about being SAVED FROM HELL?

If you think the main focus and purpose of the bible is to save a person from the only God there is burning them forever then it is a sad sad thing to be believing, IMO.. but you are welcome to your beliefs, they just don't suit me very well.


Quote:
And that is what the universlist ignore.
There is nothing to ignore. Universalists don't focus on being saved from a fiery afterlife imposed upon them by their creator when their creator (through Jesus) condemned the rich man saying that his riches are worthless when HE IS DEAD.

Matthew 6:20-21 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

The universalist believes that we store up spiritual treasure. Relationships based on God's love with our fellow man because we are ALL saved from our sin.

Where was the rich man's treasure? Did he value the riches, but scorn Lazarus the poor man?

That is why we need not fear hell but increase our treasure in heaven. Do unto others what you would have done to you....

Quote:
Nowhere. Nor have I ever heard anyone make such claim. I think this question demonstrates that you need to study the Bible. If you are saved you have eternal life, eternal life is not a requirement for salvation.
I said, "Where does it say to be saved you must have eternal life?"

So how are you using those proofs in your post that refer to eternal life rather than being saved.. which you admit are not dependent on each other nor are they the same thing, right?

I said, "Where does it say that if you don't have eternal life you cannot be saved?"

You say that if you are not saved you cannot have eternal life, right? So if ETERNAL LIFE according to JESUS (John 17) is to KNOW GOD, then wouldn't you HAVE to know God (have eternal life) first in order to believe? So if the question seems odd to you I wonder if you really understand what Christ means by ETERNAL LIFE.
 
Old 04-29-2010, 09:17 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,440,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I could believe your theory, or I can listen to Jesus Christ explain that Moses and Prophets knew about it and told people.

Who do you think I choose to believe, you or Jesus? Yes Legoman, I choose Jesus. Sorry.

1. Moses and the prophets never taught or knew about eternal torment.

2. You are ignoring what the OT says about sheol. The old testament description of sheol does not match the description of hades in the parable of the Rich Man. Given that it is a parable, it must be understood as not literal - otherwise it would CONTRADICT the old testament. Look at the links I posted about the Rich Man and Lazarus - the parable is filled with symbols that explain what its meaning is.

3. Try to address the OP and post #2 if you can.

4. This thread is for those who wish to honestly study what the scriptural meaning of the word "hell" is. If you are not willing to acknowledge the OT definitions of sheol, then you are just being disruptive.


I'm going to be away for a few days. Try not to get my thread locked (that goes for everyone... )
 
Old 04-29-2010, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,438,525 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post


I'm going to be away for a few days. Try not to get my thread locked (that goes for everyone... )
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