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Old 05-07-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420

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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are totally missing the point. You said everything is already "set right", yet injustice happens every day in our life. Is it right that people are murdered every day? Wars still happen? People are dying in 3rd world countries, and everywhere, without even knowing about God or salvation in Christ? And everything is "set right"?

Yes...everything is set right. Injustice will ALWAYS EXIST. Yes WARS STILL HAPPEN. People are killed. Children go hungry. IS this what the scripture is speaking of everything being set right? No!

The fallen spritual state of man was reconciled in Christ. Those who have faith in Him BECOME A NEW CREATION. Within the spiritual abode of the New Jerusalem, THERE IS NO MORE OF ANY OF THE ABOVE.

That is the message.

 
Old 05-07-2010, 07:05 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I guess that is all you have...nice rebuttal. It speaks volumes of the verses you can't address exegetically.
Excuse me but you were the one accusing me of smoking dope in a pipe first. here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/14082876-post9.html
 
Old 05-07-2010, 07:05 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,410,723 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes...everything is set right. Injustice will ALWAYS EXIST. Yes WARS STILL HAPPEN. People are killed. Children go hungry. IS this what the scripture is speaking of everything being set right? No!

The fallen spritual state of man was reconciled in Christ. Those who have faith in Him BECOME A NEW CREATION. Within the spiritual abode of the New Jerusalem, THERE IS NO MORE OF ANY OF THE ABOVE.

That is the message.
That is your opinion, and it is a very sad view of God's grand plan to suggest that injustice will always exist.
 
Old 05-07-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Excuse me but you were the one accusing me of smoking dope in a pipe first. here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/14082876-post9.html
Sure I did.....what you provided was not exegesis, but was pure specultation and pipe smoking. I didn't need to rebutt it, because it had no scriptural foundation, but rather a healthy infusion of eisegesis.
 
Old 05-07-2010, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
That is your opinion, and it is a very sad view of God's grand plan to suggest that injustice will always exist.
Legoman,

I like you, and I think you are a very heartfelt individual, and I understand the desire for most men and women to accept UR, in light of the Hell Doctrine. But what man fails at, as I and everyone else do, is the original sin. We want to see as God sees. We want to know as God knows. We want to understand as God does. Guess what?

We will never know why or how, or what He sees. Ever. We cant even understand His love for us, but just that He has it. He had it so much that He killed His own son for us, so that we MIGHT have eternal life, so that WE MIGHT, be saved, so that WE CAN come to the knowledge of truth. Christ was an OFFERING. His death was offered on behalf of those who have faith in Him, so that God remembers their sins no more. His Death, the Sin Offering, made by Himself on the cross for HIS PEOPLE, who are circumcised in the heart, not in the flesh....so that HIS PEOPLE can HAVE eternal life. This is why it is so important to SPREAD THE GOSPEL, otherwise, if UR were true, there would be no need for the gospel, because all mankind are FORCED INTO SALVATION, whether they want it or not. Offerings are not forced. It was given freely, so that they can be TAKEN in faith.
 
Old 05-07-2010, 09:06 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sure I did.....what you provided was not exegesis, but was pure specultation and pipe smoking. I didn't need to rebutt it, because it had no scriptural foundation, but rather a healthy infusion of eisegesis.
sciotamicks, do you realize how hypocritical that is? First you accuse me of smoking dope when I use scriptures to disprove your theory. But when I accuse you of using drugs due to what you write you accuse me like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
I guess that is all you have...nice rebuttal. It speaks volumes of the verses you can't address exegetically.
So I can say the same of you. I guess that is all you have . . . nice rebuttal. It speaks volumes of the verses you can't address exetically.

Quit being so hypocritical.
 
Old 05-07-2010, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
sciotamicks, do you realize how hypocritical that is? First you accuse me of smoking dope when I use scriptures to disprove your theory. But when I accuse you of using drugs due to what you write you accuse me like this:
You used scripture that doesn't even support your theory!

Quote:
So I can say the same of you. I guess that is all you have . . . nice rebuttal. It speaks volumes of the verses you can't address exetically.

Quit being so hypocritical.
I provide exegesis, you don't except for the 1 Tim 2:4-6, which doesn't even mean what you infuse into it.....and anytime...anyday...you want to debate formally, I am ready.
 
Old 05-07-2010, 10:40 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,722,808 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Most of what said makes sense,the Bible is a roadmap, our instruction guide for living. But it sounds like maybe you don't believe God wrote the Bible, I hope that's not true.
ILNC, 40 different people wrote the bible, but it was inspired by God. The bible, however, is not God and should not be worshipped. The bible, or an interpretation of it, has become an idol to some people. The bible is meant to guide us into a deeper relationship with God.

Christians should decide on basic truths and test the "spirits" against them. That "spirit" could be something you were taught or an interpretation of the bible you are studying. Test everything against the rock solid truth. You will, however, have to decide in your heart through God's guidance what that rock solid truth is, that will be the guideline for the rest of your understanding.

Here are some of the truths I choose to believe for my spiritual rock:

God is the creator.
God is love.
God is holy.
God is just.
God is merciful.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus died for the sins of mankind.
Jesus is the Savior.
God says to love our enemies.
We are to love God and love our neighbor as ourself.
God says to overcome evil with good.

If any other scripture "appears" not to line up with these rock solid truths, I have to dig deeper and find out why, because I know I must not understand it if it disagrees with these facts. I didn't always think this way, but now that I do, the bible is being pieced together like a puzzle that is revealing the face of God!
 
Old 05-08-2010, 12:38 AM
 
Location: San Jacinto
46 posts, read 51,069 times
Reputation: 30
You all need to study the errors in translation that lead to these utterly stupid things like eternal hell...
What is a Bible word study?
Blessings,
Bob
 
Old 05-08-2010, 01:47 AM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is God's desire that all men be saved as per 1 Tim 2:4.

It is God's purpose and intention to save only those who believe the gospel concernng Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who refuse to believe the Gospel message.

From the People's New Testament...

2:4 Who will have all men to be saved. The scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved,

come unto a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.

1 Timothy 2 People's New Testament

Man's opportunity to receive God's offer of salvation ends at the point of physical death.

(2 Cor. 6:1-2) 'Now is the day of salvation.'

Heb. 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...

Your questions in post 384 are in reference to who is in the lake of fire and how long are they there for.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

First of all, the beast and the false prophet are NOT 'systems' or 'institutions' as some say. They are living beings who are tormented day and night forever and ever in the eternal fire. The beast or antichrist is a human being who has been impowered and probably possessed by Satan himself. He is a man who rises to power and makes a seven year treaty with Israel as per Daniel 9:27, but breaks it midway through the Tribulation. At this time he will become the world dictator and will force eveyone to take a mark on their hand or forehead. He is the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction of 2 Thess 2 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God.

The false prophet will be the leader of the world religious system that will exist once the true church is taken off the earth. Possibly the false prophet will be the Roman Catholic Pope.

They are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever-EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON-into the ages of the ages. It is emphatic and means without end, extending into eternity. 1 Tim 1:17; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb 1:8; Heb 13:21; Gal 1:5; Pet 4:11; Rev 1:6; Rev 1:18; Rev 4:9,10; Rev 5:13; Rev 7:12; Rev 10:6; Rev 11:15; Rev 15:7; Rev 22:5.

In Rev 14:11; Rev 19:3; and Rev 20:10, the phrase EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON is used for eternal damnation.

When Satan is thrown into the eternal lake of fire, it also means that all of the fallen angels are cast into the eternal fire with him. This all happens at the end of the Millennium at which time all unbelievers are resurrected out of hades to stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.

The same lake of fire is described in Matthew 25:41,46 as the eternal fire. ''Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and His angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Now, Matthew 25:41 does not refer to the Great White throne judgment, but to the judgment that occurs a thousand years earlier at the Second Advent of Christ at the end of the Tribulation when all unbelievers coming out of the Tribulation are cast off the earth. Only believers will remain on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom of Christ. Some say Matthew 25:41 refers to hades, but the passage says 'the eternal fire prepared for Satan and his angels.'

And in 2 Thess 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with Hs mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day (compare with Matthew 24:30), and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

2 Thess 1:7-10 is also a reference to the Second Advent of Christ and refers to unbelieving humanity being cast off the earth at His return.

From the People's New Testament...

2 Thessalonians 1 People's New Testament

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Compared with Revelation 19:3 concerning the judgment of the great harlot Babylon. 'And a second time they said, ''Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.'' Babylon, both the city and the religious system will be destroyed forever. The judgment that comes upon Babylon is only the beginning of the punishment of the wicked as indicated in the statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

Their smoke goes up forever and ever is a phrase for eternity.

God's judgments in time cannot be compared to His eternal judgments. Those who depart this life without Christ are lost forever. So says the word of God in clear and explicit language.

The passages that universalists use to defend their false doctrines do not say or imply that all men will be saved. God did everything necessary to provide salvation for those who will receive it through faith in Christ The opportunity to receive the free gift of eternal salvation ends with physical death.

The said verse……1Ti 2:4 Who will (Gk: thelo/ethelo) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Many detractors state that it is only God's DESIRE that all men be saved as per. Lets look at just where it gets God by Him JUST ‘desiring’ something. It is true that this word “thelo/ethelo” can be understood as either a “wish/desire” or a “Determination”. So heck, lets translate it that way then, shall we.


Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will (desires it). And he sailed from Ephesus.

Why even hope on God’s DESIRE Paul, if it is as WEAK as your desire?

Mar 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt (desire), thou canst make me clean.
Mar 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will (desire); be thou clean. (Also Lk 5:12-13)

Yes, He “desired” it and it happened. He didn’t weak wish it to happen.

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt (desire) thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Now imagine what would have happened if He DID “desire” them to do so. Are you telling me that it wouldn’t have happened??

Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

Luk 18:41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.


Yes, he even fulfills the WEAK “desires and wishes” of others by His perfect desire to do so.

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased (desired) him. (are you saying that He didn’t or He can’t??)

Yes, God will fulfill his desire just as he will fulfill his Purpose. After all, HE IS GOD. I guess it depends on just how Strong some think God is though.

Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL ALSO DO IT.


On Ages of the Ages (aka forever and ever). In the phrase “EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON” the first “aionas” is in the Accusative Plural Masculine form and “aionon” is in the Genitive Plural Masculine form. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is NOT an “emphatic” statement. In fact, in the phrase “EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON”, the word “aionon” helps to LIMIT the scope of “aionas”. It is to mean “THE AGES of the ages”

Its just like writing the phrase “the best of the best” (the first word ‘best’ is limited by the second word ‘best”). The first “best” is simply THE best of all the best that was there. We can say “the apple of apples” (singular/plural) or “the apples of the apples” (plural/plural). You are trying to make people believe that this is just ‘ages upon ages upon ages’ to denote an eternal tone, and it does not.

To state that this term is “emphatic” just to save a doctrinal idea, one must use this idea all the way through then. Aside from Heb 1:8 above, you are correct, it is rendered “ages of the ages”(both plural). The REST of the places where the phrase “forever and ever” are in the bible (some 20 or more times, I think) it is rendered as “age of the age” (both singular). So, to take it ‘emphatically’ as you suggest, if “age(s) of the age(s)” means “….without end, extending into eternity.”, then what pray tell is “age of the age” supposed to mean then, “half way” or “two thirds of the way”????? No sir, these phrases are NOT emphatic. PLEASE learn GREEK before you just post something without explanation.

I do have to hand it to you though, at least you KNOW it states “ages of the ages” (PLURAL) in the Greek. You really should do your fellow believers a favor and LIST all the occurrences of this phrase and other “aion” phrases including their PLURALS and let your readers know that they have been reading “PLURAL ETERNITIES” all this time.

And for stating that the False Prophet is a SINGLE human who takes over and everything else you stated or quoted, you must remember that you are most likely talking to people who used to believe the way you do. I am not going to state that I understand Rev fully and I don’t think anybody else is on here either. But if one is going to pull a “literal” understanding from a “symbolic” book, then they are just going to be disappointed one day. I was. Christ must “really” be a LAMB then with 4 legs, there must be a giant Red Dragon hiding on the earth somewhere, etc. etc..
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