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Old 05-08-2010, 10:43 AM
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, read it again and let it sink in.
Let it stink in ? ...

Old 05-08-2010, 10:44 AM
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
Reputation: 892
Golly gee ... You guys are posting like there is no tomorrow ... !
Old 05-08-2010, 10:49 AM
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
Reputation: 892
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Really? So, only those who believe in UR can have joy and peace. That's very interesting, because I have joy and peace, and I every believer I know have joy and peace. Accrding to your UR belief only a very small fraction of th epopulation can experience joy and peace.

But then again, I don't need you to tell me whether or not I have peace and joy, because I know for a fact that what you just said is complete rubbish.

Well, the news that Germany won the 2nd world war would have brought joy and peace to Germans and antisemetes ... But i doubt it would have brought much joy or peace to anyone else ...

That's is how i see those who hold dear the doctrine of ET ... Elitist men and women who think they are better than everyone else and desire the pain and suffering of most of the people that they deal with on a daily basis.

Sociopathic misanthropes ...
Old 05-08-2010, 10:58 AM
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The word "will" in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is directly linked to the ransom of Jesus Christ for all:

"God will have all mankind to be saved FOR . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."

Since one who is ransomed MUST be freed, all mankind MUST be freed for all mankind have been ransomed. This is why God will have all mankind to be saved because all mankind have been ransomed.

In the whole old testament everyone and every animal that was ever ransomed was freed. Do you understand that? Matt Slick nor sciotamicks do not understand this.

Even if 1 Timothy 2:4 said "God wants to save all mankind" we would know God has to do what He wants because all mankind have been ransomed. Get it? It is not a matter of if all mankind will be freed from the bondage to sin and death. It is a matter of fact that they must be freed because all mankind have been ransomed and therefore they must be freed into God's salvation.

Shame on Matt Slick and shame on sciotamicks for teaching the opposite of what God tells us! Shame!
Eisegesis. Can you elborate linguistically and exegetically how "WILL" is grammatically connected contextually to "FOR" and "Ransom"?

Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
The primary meaning of thelo is "to determine".

This word is "strengthed" by the root word haireomai which means "To take for ones self"

When applied to a soveriegn God of LOVE the meaning is much more than a desire.
Then God wanted Israel to be under His wing, but guess what?
They rejected that. Looks like God's THELO was thwarted.
Secondly, a little lesson for you in grammar...when a word has another word as it's root meaning, the root word DOES NOT define the word in question. It only, at times, helps further the process, if it is applicable at all, most certainly depending on context, and ONLY THEN does the context define it's meaning. As in the case for AIONIOS, in the context used in regards to eternal life and punishment, it is DEFINED AS ETERNAL in both instances. NOT AGE LASTING as UR proposes. This is a direct attempt to infuse its doctrine, into the text, rendering it eisegetical.

Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Matt Slick makes some logical errors here, namely in thinking that God does not get what he wants because people sin. What he should realize is that while people do sin right now, they will not always sin. God will achieve his desire that people not sin. It is a process, people sin now, but they won't always.

Likewise, God can achieve His desire to save all people, even though it may appear like they aren't saved right now. To say He can't do this because people sin is a logical fallacy.
A logical fallacy? Explain please.

But we should even consider this idea of God "not wanting" people to sin. I just posted this in the other thread. Look at these scriptures:

NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

According to scripture, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. Vanity is sin. Disobedience is sin. Yet God subjected and bound us over to it. Don't argue with me, that's what scripture says...
This argument does not support you theory. Lest you forget, the text says "may have mercy"..."may show mercy"....these are conditional based on what requirement on part of man....well... we look one chapter back in Romans 10:7....confess with thy mouth...remember that one?

Originally Posted by legoman View Post
sciotamicks, you misunderstand UR if you think it means anyone is FORCED INTO SALVATION. When Saul was converted to Paul, was he FORCED INTO SALVATION? The reason the gospel needs to be preached is so people can understand. No one can ever be forced to come to God. Yet all will come to God. That is the power of God's love.
Unless you can prove that disembodied souls are reconciled to Christ and given their spiritual body without ever having faith in Christ in their mortal body life, then UR is false. What it appears you are promoting here, in these few sentences, is futurism. All millenialists believe that at the end of the milenium, the entire creation including mankind, will be transfromed new, free from sin and death. Who is all? Everyone that has ever lived including Satan and his minions? When is all? During their life or post mortem? UR cannot scripturally answer these questions therefore it renders itself, false. UR disregards the operativity of the language itself, and interprets it incorrectly.
Old 05-08-2010, 11:15 AM
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
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Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
The said verse……1Ti 2:4 Who will (Gk: thelo/ethelo) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Many detractors state that it is only God's DESIRE that all men be saved as per. Lets look at just where it gets God by Him JUST ‘desiring’ something. It is true that this word “thelo/ethelo” can be understood as either a “wish/desire” or a “Determination”. So heck, lets translate it that way then, shall we.

Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will (desires it). And he sailed from Ephesus.

Why even hope on God’s DESIRE Paul, if it is as WEAK as your desire?

Mar 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt (desire), thou canst make me clean.
Mar 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will (desire); be thou clean. (Also Lk 5:12-13)

Yes, He “desired” it and it happened. He didn’t weak wish it to happen.

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt (desire) thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Now imagine what would have happened if He DID “desire” them to do so. Are you telling me that it wouldn’t have happened??

Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

Luk 18:41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

Yes, he even fulfills the WEAK “desires and wishes” of others by His perfect desire to do so.

1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased (desired) him. (are you saying that He didn’t or He can’t??)

Yes, God will fulfill his desire just as he will fulfill his Purpose. After all, HE IS GOD. I guess it depends on just how Strong some think God is though.

Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL ALSO DO IT.

On Ages of the Ages (aka forever and ever). In the phrase “EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON” the first “aionas” is in the Accusative Plural Masculine form and “aionon” is in the Genitive Plural Masculine form. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is NOT an “emphatic” statement. In fact, in the phrase “EIS TOUS AIONAS TON AIONON”, the word “aionon” helps to LIMIT the scope of “aionas”. It is to mean “THE AGES of the ages”

Its just like writing the phrase “the best of the best” (the first word ‘best’ is limited by the second word ‘best”). The first “best” is simply THE best of all the best that was there. We can say “the apple of apples” (singular/plural) or “the apples of the apples” (plural/plural). You are trying to make people believe that this is just ‘ages upon ages upon ages’ to denote an eternal tone, and it does not.

To state that this term is “emphatic” just to save a doctrinal idea, one must use this idea all the way through then. Aside from Heb 1:8 above, you are correct, it is rendered “ages of the ages”(both plural). The REST of the places where the phrase “forever and ever” are in the bible (some 20 or more times, I think) it is rendered as “age of the age” (both singular). So, to take it ‘emphatically’ as you suggest, if “age(s) of the age(s)” means “….without end, extending into eternity.”, then what pray tell is “age of the age” supposed to mean then, “half way” or “two thirds of the way”????? No sir, these phrases are NOT emphatic. PLEASE learn GREEK before you just post something without explanation.

I do have to hand it to you though, at least you KNOW it states “ages of the ages” (PLURAL) in the Greek. You really should do your fellow believers a favor and LIST all the occurrences of this phrase and other “aion” phrases including their PLURALS and let your readers know that they have been reading “PLURAL ETERNITIES” all this time.

And for stating that the False Prophet is a SINGLE human who takes over and everything else you stated or quoted, you must remember that you are most likely talking to people who used to believe the way you do. I am not going to state that I understand Rev fully and I don’t think anybody else is on here either. But if one is going to pull a “literal” understanding from a “symbolic” book, then they are just going to be disappointed one day. I was. Christ must “really” be a LAMB then with 4 legs, there must be a giant Red Dragon hiding on the earth somewhere, etc. etc..
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Excellent post! I just hope Mike555, twin.spin, sciotamics and whoever else will learn from it. They probably won't but, maybe they will. Well, upon reading sciotamicks reply to joeallcomm above I can definately say he didn't learn from it. So sad. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. But God must be keeping this screened from sciotamicks for a good reason. Hopefully God will open his eyes in this life. If not we can rejoice that He will in the next.
There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.

1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''

It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.

2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.

Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.

God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.

C.I Scofield wrote...

(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).

The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.

(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).

3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''

God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.

God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.

Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)

It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.

It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.

It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.

It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.

It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day'' Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

See the following links...

Lesson 7 - The Will of God Part 2

D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)

By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-08-2010 at 12:23 PM..
Old 05-08-2010, 11:16 AM
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
Reputation: 892

Why does what you believe to be fair and true divine justice make you sad.

Is there an aspect of God that makes you sad?
Old 05-08-2010, 11:20 AM
309 posts, read 295,145 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
So, now he did go to heaven? Make up your mind. Is this your argument? Is this why you have gone on and on to insist that people do not go to heaven after they die, but only to grave? That, my friend is bickering at its best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead people. You have insisted all week, that people do not go to heaven when they die, and that was all you said. If someone had listened to you they would now think they are not going to heaven when they die. You see a problem with spreading such teaching? Now, after a week of seeing your being picked apart, you say that the spirit actually goes to heaven.

Well, at least you admit it in the end.
Once again you mislead yourself. First you say David went to heaven. Then you say a person by a "different NAME" went to heaven. Then you say his "soul" went to heaven. And now you are saying that the "spirit" that "I" said went to heaven is D A V I D. I never said "David went to heaven". The "spirit" of David is NOT David. You made this up yourself. Or maybe you are confused and the the "soul" and the "spirit" are the same thing. Again you need to study. Again, if you claim that "after Christ ascended, then from THEN ON all believers went to be with the Lord directly after death" and then state that the "spirit" is the "person". I guess by your own belief then, EVERYBODY goes to heaven to be with God after death, even BEFORE Christ, because that is WHEN this verse was written.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You can only stretch this belief so far sir.
Old 05-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
Reputation: 420
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

Why does what you believe to be fair and true divine justice make you sad.

Is there an aspect of God that makes you sad?
I don't understand what my feelings have to do with God's justice?

This is where most, if not all, of you fail.
Old 05-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
Reputation: 1690
Well.. I finally made it through the last 4 pages of dialogue...

I haven't seen anyone dispute that hell cannot be seen and is speculative at best. Why would you speculate that people will burn forever? I would need more than just speculation and mistranslated proper nouns to believe in such an atrocity as hell for eternity!

So basically the argument here is whether Hell is torture for tortures sake or a corrective fire that produces good in all men. Where are the scriptures that tell us that hell is torture for tortures sake?
Old 05-08-2010, 11:28 AM
309 posts, read 295,145 times
Reputation: 60
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Finn, you need to actually read Joe's whole post and not cut out a snip out of context.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Perhaps Joe can clarify his view but I don't think he was saying that David is a "spirit" that returned to God. Man is not a "spirit". Man is a soul. The soul is a combination of spirit and body. The spirit is the life - the breath that God breathed into Adam (Gen 2:7)

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [SPIRIT] of life; and man became a living soul.

As Joe said, "man is NOT a triune man".
Yes Legoman.....he has been trying to twist scripture to prove his point and now he has resorted to twisting "my" words to prove his point. He knows his folly, he is just continuing to hold on to that brass ring of his faith. I dont blame him, I did the same thing when I walked in his steps.
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