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Old 05-08-2010, 04:02 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Matt Slick:

The word "will" in Greek is "thelo." It means "will" (1 Cor. 7:36), or "desire" (Mark 9:35; Phil. 4:17). God desires that all people be saved. But, not all people will be saved. But then, is this stating that God's will is not carried out? Yes and No. God wants that people not sin. Do they sin? Yes. Is God's will accomplished in this? No. Is God in control? Yes, yet His will that they not sin, is not carried out. They will be judged for their sins (if not justified by faith in Christ) and fall under the condemnation of God. Yet God does not want them to perish as it says in Ezekiel 33:11, "'As I live,' saith the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.'" Will they perish? Yes, because God punishes the sinner who is not covered in the blood of Christ: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).

And you failed to see that in the verses I posted it was "desired" everytime and it happened EVERYTIME. You make your God weak. That is all you are saying to me, you are saying to yourself "MYYY will is greater than God's will". The very 'breath' He gave you, you are claiming that you 'breath' it by your OWN will.

Consider the case of a righteous judge who must sentence a man to death. The judge is a good man, honest, and full of mercy. Yet, he must enforce the law set before him. Is it his will (desire) to sentence the man to death? No. But, because there are laws, he must enforce them. Likewise with God. He desires that people not perish, but many will because they reject God and His Messiah. They will then face the judgment of the Lawgiver. The Law will be enforced.
So, does 1 Timothy 2:4 prove that God will save all men? No it does not.

Well consider your own logic here. It is evident that you deny the CROSS in your scenero here. Christ died to free us of the 'law', he died to cover the sins that this man has done, and he 'tasted death' FOR him (and ALL men). You forget that Jesus died for us "WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS AND ENEMIES".

I will continue to post relevant articles and my own comments every time I see eisegesis such as this. This is complete butchering of the word of God to promote a false doctrine.
Again, God's desire is NOT a weak wish. You must stop putting your GOD in there same reasoning and realm as mere MAN.

 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:17 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,419,965 times
Reputation: 5147
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I can't imagine a more appropriate fate for it.Actually . . I do agree with the conclusion about free will . . . but all the other complex "precepts and doctrines of men" you follow are dangerous to your spiritual development. Just "love God and each other" . . . ALL else is vanity.
"LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF"
There is nothing that mortal man can do to add or detract from God's Divine Plan...

There is no lake of fire where MORTAL MEN burn for eternity!...please
This doctrine is going against what Jesus taught his discriples to practice.

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

GOD WOULD BE GOING AGAINST HIS OWN WORDS IF THE LAKE OF FIRE THAT BURN PEOPLE THROUGH ETERNITY WERE SO!

we have this saying, "practice what you preach"???

Our justice system would seem more merciful...in that...the most heinous crime is only punishable by DEATH...not torment forever.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is no one else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalm 67
God Shall Govern the Earth
1 GOD be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us;......Selah

2 That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations

3 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.

4 O let the nations be glad and SING FOR JOY: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth.

5 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.

6 Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God shall bless us.

7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.


Matthew 5:5 The meek shall inherit the earth.

Blessings...
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:32 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,444,857 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Again, God's desire is NOT a weak wish. You must stop putting your GOD in there same reasoning and realm as mere MAN.
Amen, Joe!

Too bad they just can't see it. God's will in this matter is dependent upon Christ ransoming all mankind.

Any human or animal ransomed MUST be freed. Every place in the old testament attests to this fact.

So, since all mankind have been ransomed God will have all mankind to be saved.

Even if it just said "God wants to save all mankind" we know that His "want" must turn into a realized accomplishment due to the fact that it is based upon Christ ransoming all mankind.

"God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6).
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:42 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Why would you 'guess' such thing, when you have specifically been told otherwise ? ?

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Nothing penetrates. Anyway, your spinning has already been exposed, so as far as you are concerned, my work here is done.
You are getting "no where" with this Finn, and you know it. Why are you giving up now? I will leave you with a quote...

"Talking to you is like talking to a wall. Nothing penetrates. Anyway, your spinning has already been exposed, so as far as you are concerned, my work here is done." Of course I am not done yet
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:47 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
LOF on earth....hmmm...scripture says that at the Resurrection of the "DEAD", both the Sea, Death and Hades "DEAD" are thrown into the LOF.

Wrong! The Lake of Fire is a place for those who ARE DEAD, meaning not alive, meaning NO FLESH, BONES AND BLOOD.

Where do you guys get this stuff from?
Not the Bible.
Spoken like a true "carnal" being. Hey...did you know that Christ is a 'literal' LAMB and he has four legs and hoofs.

Think Spiritually Sciotamicks not "carnally".
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:51 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eccl 12:5-8 your desire shall fail: because man goes to his long home, and the mourners will be in the streets: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel be broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher; all is vanity.

That's life apart from God. And if you live apart from God, you will experience the same thing. Separation. There is no real meaning in life apart from God, apart from serving God. There is nothing worthwhile. Vanity, vanity, all is emptiness.
Dont get what this has to do with my post, but hey....thanks for quoting scipture.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:58 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,377 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
LOL You were caught with your pants down and you just can't get over it. LOL
Ok...guess you havent given up yet on this. So again Sir Finn....tell me where "I" said that the "spirit" WAAAASSSSS David, so everybody can see what you are so happy about. Your acting like a 12 year old. No scripture, no proof, just another verse from the FJV.....Are you done translating it yet. Dont give up now Mr. Confident.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Again, God's desire is NOT a weak wish. You must stop putting your GOD in there same reasoning and realm as mere MAN.

Actually...you are. You are imposing a desire YOU have with God's.
The text in 1 Tim 2 DOES NOT STATE GOD"S DIVINE WILL AND DECREE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Dont get what this has to do with my post.
Figures...
 
Old 05-08-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,089 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Spoken like a true "carnal" being. Hey...did you know that Christ is a 'literal' LAMB and he has four legs and hoofs.

Think Spiritually Sciotamicks not "carnally".
The Lake of Fire is not a "carnal" place in this dimension...it is a spritual dimension.....please save me the rhetoric.

Again, you can't deal with the text.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 05:16 PM
 
20,321 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Again, God's desire is NOT a weak wish. You must stop putting your GOD in there same reasoning and realm as mere MAN.
There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.

1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''

It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.

2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.

Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.

God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.

C.I Scofield wrote...

quote
(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).

The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.

(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.
unquote

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).

3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''

God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.

God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.

Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)

It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.

It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.

It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.

It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.

It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day'' Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

See the following links...

Lesson 7 - The Will of God Part 2

D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)


By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.
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