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Old 04-29-2010, 11:59 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,607 times
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Quote:
4. This thread is for those who wish to honestly study what the scriptural meaning of the word "hell" is. If you are not willing to acknowledge the OT definitions of sheol, then you are just being disruptive.
legoman....I will add my little tid-bit on the word 'hell' for you. Great post by the way.

Hades is literally translated “unseen” or “unperceived”, and is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “sheol” which can literally mean “THE ASK, as in asked where”, which fits nicely with the “unseen”. The LXX translators used the Gk hades to translate the Hebrew sheol. In turn, the translators of the KJV translated both “sheol” and “hades” with the Mid English/Anglo-Saxon word “hell”. Well what did the word “hell” mean to them at there time? Here is the definition of the word used in everyday life in the 1600’s.

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"

At that time, one could claim to be “helling a roof” (covering a roof) or have “helled potatoes” (covered them) or “helled bodies“ (buried/concealed them). Now these are close meanings in all three “Heb: where?, Gk: unseen, and OE: concealed/covered. Not the best translations, but enough to grasp the point being presented. And all can be construed as a “realm” or “abode” of the dead. Well the question is then “where is the Fire, Brimstone, Suffering, etc.?”. Here it is in a 21st Century dictionary.

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

Where did it change then? The 21st century use traces back to the Greek God Hades (Ruler of the hades, or ruler of the Unseen, or Underworld that the living cannot Perceive). These two “totally different” meanings can mold ones “concept of Hell”, and can, as some say, stem from “Greek philosophical ideals superimposed upon Christian thought”. It is interesting to note that when reading the OT, we find that EVERYBODY who dies goes there, whether good or bad. I don’t believe that Jacob went to a Christianized Hell of torments (Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29). It is funny that when the context of the scripts are talking of “bad” people, the translators translated it “hell”, but when “good” people are in view it is translated “grave”. Both are the same Hebrew word “sheol”. Furthermore, in the NT the Greek word “hades” shows up 11 times. In every instance it is translated “hell” in the KJV, except once. For there it is translated “grave”. (1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?). It is simply the “unseen”, and there is no torturing, suffering, fire, or brimstone there. There is simply “A NOTHING” there, if one can imagine such a thing.

 
Old 04-30-2010, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Say-Town! Texas
968 posts, read 2,104,186 times
Reputation: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
legoman....I will add my little tid-bit on the word 'hell' for you. Great post by the way.

Hades is literally translated “unseen” or “unperceived”, and is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “sheol” which can literally mean “THE ASK, as in asked where”, which fits nicely with the “unseen”. The LXX translators used the Gk hades to translate the Hebrew sheol. In turn, the translators of the KJV translated both “sheol” and “hades” with the Mid English/Anglo-Saxon word “hell”. Well what did the word “hell” mean to them at there time? Here is the definition of the word used in everyday life in the 1600’s.

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"

At that time, one could claim to be “helling a roof” (covering a roof) or have “helled potatoes” (covered them) or “helled bodies“ (buried/concealed them). Now these are close meanings in all three “Heb: where?, Gk: unseen, and OE: concealed/covered. Not the best translations, but enough to grasp the point being presented. And all can be construed as a “realm” or “abode” of the dead. Well the question is then “where is the Fire, Brimstone, Suffering, etc.?”. Here it is in a 21st Century dictionary.

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

Where did it change then? The 21st century use traces back to the Greek God Hades (Ruler of the hades, or ruler of the Unseen, or Underworld that the living cannot Perceive). These two “totally different” meanings can mold ones “concept of Hell”, and can, as some say, stem from “Greek philosophical ideals superimposed upon Christian thought”. It is interesting to note that when reading the OT, we find that EVERYBODY who dies goes there, whether good or bad. I don’t believe that Jacob went to a Christianized Hell of torments (Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29). It is funny that when the context of the scripts are talking of “bad” people, the translators translated it “hell”, but when “good” people are in view it is translated “grave”. Both are the same Hebrew word “sheol”. Furthermore, in the NT the Greek word “hades” shows up 11 times. In every instance it is translated “hell” in the KJV, except once. For there it is translated “grave”. (1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?). It is simply the “unseen”, and there is no torturing, suffering, fire, or brimstone there. There is simply “A NOTHING” there, if one can imagine such a thing.
wow, that makes complete sense of the word historically. and i believe all of mankind has had similar ideas of hell to pull from.

the way I have understood it my whole life is: when you die, you go to a "waiting room" it can be paradise or it can be prison for you, depending on how you lived. (Jesus said in the NT that he would be preaching to people elsewhere, my church extends this belief to the afterlife)

once judgement day comes, every soul is judged and made to pay for their wrong doing (which wasn't repented for) and rewarded for their good deeds.

after that is heaven and hell. I believe heaven and hell are physical places and hell will be your idea of torment, and the hellfire and brimstone will only be there for added despair if you find it disparaging.

I believe Heaven Earth and Hell are relatively close to each other physically which is why we have spirits and demons here on earth.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 12:19 AM
 
309 posts, read 295,607 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Yes, FIRE!!! Thanks Kat, I am learning so much and it's very exciting. Yikes, can you imagine what I will be like when I actually know what I'm talking about?? I can't even put into words all the things that are swirling around in my head right now.....I have to put things on paper and study them out one by one. I have to go out and buy a new notebook today!!

I would just like to say to Legoman too a great big THANK YOU for starting this thread and making it so easy to understand. I hope people will take the time to read and study.....what a glorious thing that I am feeling!!

God is so awesome!!
Ilene....I cant explain how happy I am for you to see these truths for yourself. I, and I am sure all of us who are like minded, are excited for you also. It is an amazing transformation. I must chuckle a little for you though (in a nice way of course), because you will find yourself having to re-read the bible all over again with this new mind you are attaining. In turn, it will be exciting as well.

I have found, with this new way of 'seeing' and 'hearing', that it is just about impossible to explain these things to others who don't 'see' and 'hear' as we do. We must remember that God is in control of ALL things, therefore ALL people are were they are in there beliefs by HIS will. You mostlikely now understand why Paul was so joyous in his suffering for Christ. God bless you sister.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 12:47 AM
 
309 posts, read 295,607 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orincarnia View Post
wow, that makes complete sense of the word historically. and i believe all of mankind has had similar ideas of hell to pull from.

the way I have understood it my whole life is: when you die, you go to a "waiting room" it can be paradise or it can be prison for you, depending on how you lived. (Jesus said in the NT that he would be preaching to people elsewhere, my church extends this belief to the afterlife)

once judgement day comes, every soul is judged and made to pay for their wrong doing (which wasn't repented for) and rewarded for their good deeds.

after that is heaven and hell. I believe heaven and hell are physical places and hell will be your idea of torment, and the hellfire and brimstone will only be there for added despair if you find it disparaging.

I believe Heaven Earth and Hell are relatively close to each other physically which is why we have spirits and demons here on earth.
Yes, if you wish you could think of it as a ‘waiting room’, but the only one who would be ‘waiting’ is the one who will eventually raise you from it. You will have no sensation of waiting. In sheol/hades we are D.E.A.D. “dead”. Any thoughts of feelings, sensations, suffering, bliss, torment, etc. connected to the word ‘hell’ came, as said before, from ‘superimposing’ it into one’s belief. The Bible speaks of no such things while in sheol/hades.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (Heb: sheol), whither thou goest.

I don’t know if you have read it yet, but the first posts by Legoman at the beginning of this thread explain it very well. I was just adding to what he was explaining.

As for hell being a tangible ‘place’ would be somewhat hard to explain given the scriptures that explain what it is. As close as it gets, in my opinion, is a ‘realm’.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 12:56 AM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,422,899 times
Reputation: 5147
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
legoman....I will add my little tid-bit on the word 'hell' for you. Great post by the way.

Hades is literally translated “unseen” or “unperceived”, and is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “sheol” which can literally mean “THE ASK, as in asked where”, which fits nicely with the “unseen”. The LXX translators used the Gk hades to translate the Hebrew sheol. In turn, the translators of the KJV translated both “sheol” and “hades” with the Mid English/Anglo-Saxon word “hell”. Well what did the word “hell” mean to them at there time? Here is the definition of the word used in everyday life in the 1600’s.

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"

At that time, one could claim to be “helling a roof” (covering a roof) or have “helled potatoes” (covered them) or “helled bodies“ (buried/concealed them). Now these are close meanings in all three “Heb: where?, Gk: unseen, and OE: concealed/covered. Not the best translations, but enough to grasp the point being presented. And all can be construed as a “realm” or “abode” of the dead. Well the question is then “where is the Fire, Brimstone, Suffering, etc.?”. Here it is in a 21st Century dictionary.

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

Where did it change then? The 21st century use traces back to the Greek God Hades (Ruler of the hades, or ruler of the Unseen, or Underworld that the living cannot Perceive). These two “totally different” meanings can mold ones “concept of Hell”, and can, as some say, stem from “Greek philosophical ideals superimposed upon Christian thought”. It is interesting to note that when reading the OT, we find that EVERYBODY who dies goes there, whether good or bad. I don’t believe that Jacob went to a Christianized Hell of torments (Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29). It is funny that when the context of the scripts are talking of “bad” people, the translators translated it “hell”, but when “good” people are in view it is translated “grave”. Both are the same Hebrew word “sheol”. Furthermore, in the NT the Greek word “hades” shows up 11 times. In every instance it is translated “hell” in the KJV, except once. For there it is translated “grave”. (1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?). It is simply the “unseen”, and there is no torturing, suffering, fire, or brimstone there. There is simply “A NOTHING” there, if one can imagine such a thing.
This post should remove the fear of "hell and eternal damnation" to those who seek the truth...

I have always believed that the wages of sin is death. Annihilation (as some equates death) denotes malice and vengeance...not synonymous with the natural process of...from dust to dust, which is death.

Blessings...
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
HUH? I've asked Ilene to clarify so I guess we will just have to wait and see. Because I cannot make heads or tails of the above. You said the rich man wanted water like a human...
No, the BIBLE said the rich man wanted water from Lazarus. I didn't come up with it.

Drop the "huh"s. You asked me where Ilene talked about the transformation process, so I quoted it for you.

Quote:
because it was an awfully hot place, right?
Yes, indeed. He was being tormented by flames: "For I am in anguish in this flame.’"


Quote:
and he wanted to warn those he loved... right?
Yes.

Quote:
Because his brothers (LIKE HIM) wouldn't believe him if they didn't believe JESUS when JESUS stood there and told them (remember context...Jesus is being rejected..right?)
Actually the parable says they have Moses and the prophets: ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ But yes, Moses and the prophets were saying the same thing Jesus was.


Quote:
So what is Jesus saying?
"whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
You have made known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand. -Psalm 16:10

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt - Daniel 12:2

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 04-30-2010 at 07:01 AM..
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Why do you assume that if you are NOT born again or a part of the kingdom that you will not be saved?
I just quoted it to you from the Bible, so it is not an assumption. sigh...
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
1. Moses and the prophets never taught or knew about eternal torment.
Again, I'll take Jesus's words over yours, ans He said Moses and prophets knew all about it.

Quote:
2. You are ignoring what the OT says about sheol. The old testament description of sheol does not match the description of hades in the parable of the Rich Man. Given that it is a parable, it must be understood as not literal - otherwise it would CONTRADICT the old testament. Look at the links I posted about the Rich Man and Lazarus - the parable is filled with symbols that explain what its meaning is.
Again, I'll take Jesus's words over yours.


Quote:
4. This thread is for those who wish to honestly study what the scriptural meaning of the word "hell" is. If you are not willing to acknowledge the OT definitions of sheol, then you are just being disruptive.
That's what we are doing, so quit playing mod.

Also, quit telling others that they are disruptive if they don't agree with your views.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:53 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,760,797 times
Reputation: 58198
I think the biggest problem between ETer's (that was me) and UR's (not me yet) is the word "eternal". We've already established that the word "hell" is mis-translated all throughout the Bible so why don't you look at how the word "eternal" is mistranslated.
 
Old 04-30-2010, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I think the biggest problem between ETer's (that was me) and UR's (not me yet) is the word "eternal". We've already established that the word "hell" is mis-translated all throughout the Bible so why don't you look at how the word "eternal" is mistranslated.
Well, actually no one have not established anything about 'hell'. You thought Sheol/Hades was hell, but that is not the case, and the Bible proves it. Some people here are deliberately trying to mix definitions up so they can prove an unbiblical view. Can't you see how the universalists keep saying 'hell' doesn't exist, and to support the argument they they offer examples of Sheol/Hades, which is not hell to begin with. I do not believe they are ignorant about it, so it is a deliberate attempt to mislead people, and sadly I see that you are beginning to believe it. Keep reading the Bible because you are under spiritual attack. That is a fact, whether or not you realize it or not.
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