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Old 05-09-2010, 11:42 AM
Location: Canada
6,643 posts, read 4,004,931 times
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Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I am saying as I have always said and always will God is the ONLY author of the Bible, men wrote down what He told them to.
Yet Jesus says Moses ADDED to the scriptures.

So either Jesus is wrong or your understanding is.

Old 05-09-2010, 12:42 PM
7,374 posts, read 7,210,108 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I don't understand what my feelings have to do with God's justice?

This is where most, if not all, of you fail.

According to you, God makes you sad ... I believe that is where you fail.
Old 05-09-2010, 01:43 PM
1,897 posts, read 1,724,090 times
Reputation: 263
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I am saying as I have always said and always will God is the ONLY author of the Bible, men wrote down what He told them to.
What do you make of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11?

16 I say again, let no one think me a fool. If otherwise, at least receive me as a fool, that I also may boast a little. 17 What I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as it were, foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many boast according to the flesh, I also will boast. 19 For you put up with fools gladly, since you yourselves are wise! 20 For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face. 21 To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also.
Old 05-09-2010, 04:16 PM
6,221 posts, read 6,416,230 times
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Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Mike………..all that you have written has only proven that “man” has a “will”. No one is saying that man does NOT have a will. I am just saying that man’s will is NOT FREE of the manipulation of God’s will. You must realize how easy it is for God to manipulate or not to manipulate ANY man, at ANY time, solely because they are ALL SINNERS.

Read ALL (please read all of it) of this and tell me WHERE you find man’s FREEWILL in it.

Does man have a free will?

Here we have the Israelites NOT YET passing over the Jordan and God tells us what they are going to do there, BEFORE they do it. He even has Moses script a song as a witness to it.

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up (in the future?), and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Now come on, who can do this but God Himself. Actually, all that they do there MUST happen or else how can it come to be an “ensample” to us. He sets their future, because he can…..

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Man can only follow God because He ‘causes’ them to do so…

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause (Heb: make) you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if they do not see or hear his calling, it is because God “causes” them not to…

Rom. 11:7,8 God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear".

It is God who moves one to do this or that….

2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here is a good example of someone who “thinks” he has something called a “free will”….

Mar 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

This was written back in Zec 13:7 centuries before hand (therefore, it MUST come to pass). Now here is Jesus telling Peter that he WILL be offended. Of course Peter's "free will" (that he thinks he has) says he will not be offended. I am sure that Peter was sincere with his decision. But we all know Peter was offended and denied Jesus three times.

God works these things in people, the people have no control over it.

Jas 4:13-15 Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? ………..
Jas 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

He knew you “intimately” before you were born and BEFORE your supposed ’free will’ even existed. He knows exactly what you are going to do during your life……

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not anything WE do], but of him [God] that calleth
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth [our wills, free or otherwise], nor of him that runneth, BUT OF GOD that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (According to you EVERYBODY can)
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God makes and controls the honorable AND the dishonorable vessels. Even those who go against His own people….

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart (Egypt) to hate his people, to deal subtlely with his servants

Before Moses even went to lead God’s people out of Egypt, God stated this to Moses…

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

We read many times that God, Himself, hardened Pharaoh’s heart…

(See ...Exo 7:3, 9:12, 14:4, 14:17, 7:13-14, 7:22, 9:12, 9:35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:8).

Not only that who hardened the heart of ALL OF THE EGYPTIANS to follow after the Israelites?

Exo 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

He didn’t just single Pharaoh out to do this, He does it to whomever He wishes

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their [the Canaanites'] hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

God predestines ALL to His own will….

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God predestines according to his purpose of HIS will not our choices. He "worketh ALL things", including our wills.

Pro 20:24 Man's goings [Heb: steps] are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

But man thinks he understands his own way. Look at what else God does....

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).

And does the "free will" of a certain man cause himself to be wicked? No, God does that too.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Surely man has control to plan his own way, good or bad. No, God does that too.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

If we are created by the hands of God, then he controls everything we do.....

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Here is Pilate's supposed free will speaking……

John 19:10 "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU?

But where did this power really come from?

Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:11).

Can we really do good, of our own selves?

Jer 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Now here is something very VERY interesting. There is, in the Scriptures, an example where God tells us that He uses people to do His will, but that the one being used doesn’t know it, but rather thinks that he himself is doing the choosing and making the decisions and carrying out the intentions of his heart all according to his own presumed "free will", whereas God says that it is He, and not the person being used, Who is in total control of the one being used.

The bible continues to show this truth, and the Truth is saying that THIS is what people want (notice all the my's, me's, I's, Hence “free will”):

This is the King of Assyria talking….

Isa 10:13-14
......By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by the wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand has found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathers eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

We can plug in what ever we want here, like ...It is because of what I have done or because I chose Christ that am saved.)

What else can Truth continue to say though, but that THIS is what God does with what people Want:

This is God speaking....

Isa 10:10-12
As my hand has found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord has performed His whole work [by using the Assyrians] upon Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria and the glory of his high looks (vs 13-14) .

Because THIS is what the Truth of an all Sovereign God says:

Isa 10:15 Shall the ax [king of Assyria] boast itself [ I, Me, My] against him that hews therewith [God]? Or shall the saw [king of Assyria] magnify itself against Him that saws with it [God] as if the rod [king of Assyria] should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff [king of Assyria] should lift up itself, as if it were no wood

This wood, ax, etc., thinks it is something with free will and the power of self-determinism. Once again the King of Assyria doesn’t even believe in the God of Israel, so surely he took the spoils from Israel and tread them down of his own "free will". Did he?

Isaiah 10:5-8
“O Assyrian, the rod of Mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of My wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit HE means not so, neither does HIS heart [his ‘obscured’ heart—Ecc. 3:11] think so; but it is in HIS heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. For he says, Are not MY princes altogether kings?

Even man's supposed "free will" to do evil is in control of God...

Gen 50:19-20 “And Joseph said unto them [his brothers], Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you thought evil against me, but God meant it [the evil they had done] unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”

What happens to a prophet who is deceived?

Eze 14:9....I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Well thats understandable, but who deceived the prophet, Satan or the Devil?

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and …..

Did the ones against Jesus choose to be against him of their own free will?

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Man thinks his plans are of his own mind and heart, but who's plan really prevails?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

It is the flesh of man that says he has a "free will", how does flesh and Spirit get along?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Do we repent of our own selves, or is our repentance given to us?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Man cannot “free will” his way into being a “vessel of honor”, God leads him there. If one be given a “good spirit” then is FROM THE LORD, but if one be given an “evil spirit” it too is FROM THE LORD.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:16, 19:9)

Man must realize that God is Soveriegn, which means He has Control of EVERYTHING, even our own wills. Man cannot choose to save himself. Salvation has already been bought since the foundation of the world. You must acknowledge WHAT YOU are, which is a sinner. The day that you see yourself as a worse sinner then Hitler himself…….

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

….is the day you will become closer to God, for your reward is the same. To hold onto one’s supposed “free will” is to remain blind to the truth of WHO is actually in control of ALL things, and He will give you this delusion for a time. But again, remember, it is a delusion. You must come to know what God HIMSELF compares YOU to. You are an AX and He swings YOU. You are His ROD, He uses YOU. You are His STAFF, His CLAY, His POT. None of these things in God’s eyes has a ’freewill’ to guild ITSELF. Do NOT question the POTTER. Man did NOT till the ground FIRST, if He had not tilled FIRST, you would NOT BE. You WILL do what God purposes for you to do. It is an illusion that you hold onto. “Every good thing comes from above”, so why take credit for the GOOD you do, when the GLORY should go to HIM. Man does have a WILL sir, and it is a WILL TO SIN, and none other. The only GOOD will is God’s and whatever good is done by Man has came from God so that man cannot correctly boast (of his own righteous will). If believing is GOOD, than He gave it to you. Every man is a TABERNACLE, and all have a MERCY SEAT. If it is empty (deny thyself, die daily, thine own 'will') HE WILL SIT!! If ONE sits there on HIS throne, in His purposed time He will destroy him, but nevertheless HE WILL SIT IN HIS TABERNACLE!! Know this sir, you cannot thwart God’s will.

Yes, brilliant post Joel! To claim we have free will is to ignore all of the plain scripture you referenced above.

That's not to say we don't have a will, just that it is not free. Our will is actually heavily influenced by many things, not the least of which is God.
Old 05-09-2010, 04:18 PM
6,221 posts, read 6,416,230 times
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Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Two things to consider before you believe everything you read in the internet
Did you read the scriptures in joeallcomm's post?
Old 05-09-2010, 04:31 PM
17,968 posts, read 12,458,351 times
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Yes, brilliant post Joel! To claim we have free will is to ignore all of the plain scripture you referenced above.

That's not to say we don't have a will, just that it is not free. Our will is actually heavily influenced by many things, not the least of which is God.
Correct. There is the will of the flesh and the will of man (John 1:13) which I might add John says one is not born again by either of those two wills even though some here say they are over and over and over again.

There is the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness (Eph.2:2).

If you are operating a car, does the car go where it wants to go or where you want it to go?
Old 05-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
According to you, God makes you sad ... I believe that is where you fail.
God makes me sad? You mean according to you and your failed views of the gospel.....This is what I am talking about, you can't even interpret or discern me, let alone the scriptures.
Old 05-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,833,848 times
Reputation: 1302
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Old 05-09-2010, 05:21 PM
309 posts, read 295,693 times
Reputation: 60
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I already made clear, God's will is directive, permissive, and overruling.

In the issue of salvation, God's will is permissive. He allows man to reject salvation.

Man is free to accept or reject God in keeping with his God given volition. Man's free will is the most basic issue of the angelic conflict. God never coerces man's free will with regard to salvation.


God desires all men to be saved. But not all men are saved.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.

The issue is just that plain and simple and uncomplicated.
Mike……. You have not addressed not one scripture I have posted. You would find yourself hard-pressed to try to explain them away. You keep quoting this “He who believes in the Son has eternal life…” doctrine and you don’t even know what it means. If you keep insisting on thinking about this in such a “carnal” nature, then ask yourself some serious questions then. We will look at this “carnally” then. Your doctrine leaves a plethora of humanity unspoken for. Millions of babies have died NOT knowing WHO Christ is, much less BELIEVING in Him. At that time, when Paul preached, there had to be MILLIONS of people that had “died” NOT been presented with the Gospel. What of them?? My 23 year old son is Down-Syndrome (spelling??) and is totally incapable of believing in the Cross of Christ, much less knowing what He did for him. What of him?? There are MILLIONS rite NOW who haven’t even eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. One ‘experiences’ this Fruit WHILE living there life.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This “evil” that so many think is attributed to the SATAN of their life is given to men BY GOD to HUMBLE him by it.

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (Heb: evil) travail hath GOD GIVEN to the sons of man to be exercised (Gk: abase, humble) therewith.

Everyone who matures past the “child” of life MUST eat the fruit. So many see it as a BAD thing that Eve ate of the fruit. If she had NOT eaten of it, how pray tell would she then have the knowledge of what GOOD was, much less EVIL.

One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he as the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)

And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe. The belief you keep quoting is NOT the belief of a “believer” but rather the belief of a CHOSEN, and of an ELETE, which are the FIRSTFRUITS of ALL the Harvest (for there are STILL those under the law). The CHOSEN are given “Eonion Life”. The life you speak of is NOT what you think, they are given this life NOW, but yet shall they die the death of flesh. With a "spiritual" ear, this can be understood in many different ways. Of this, I can only say to ALL that, I am convince (for I am a man), that THIS is “Eonion Life”…….

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath (toward them who don’t have this life) through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (being given new life, HERE and NOW)

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (ARE dead): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify (Gk: put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live (the Life).

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is (NOW) passed from death unto life.(Eonian Life)

1Jn 3:14 We know that we HAVE passed from death (being DEAD) unto life (this LIFE), because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death (are STILL dead).

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am DEAD to the law, that I might live (this LIFE) unto God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified (DIED) with Christ: nevertheless I live (the LIFE); yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live (anew) by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we (NOW) be dead with him, we shall also (NOW) live with him:

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and LIVE?

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same (Christ’s) mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:2 That he (WE) no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh (IN DEATH) to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life (of death) may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange (you do think we are strange people, do you not??) that ye run not with them (the dead) to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick (LIVING) and the DEAD.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead (TO CHRIST), that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live (LIFE) according to God in the spirit.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead (to the FLESH), yet shall he live (the LIFE):

The DEAD are in the FLESH, the LIVING are a NEW CREATURE with a NEW MIND. So if one wants to hold on to the mind of the FLESH and THINK it has some type of control over itself (freewill), then IT TOO will DIE. God will NOT share His Throne with it. The ones who have LIFE have a NEW MIND, but are left within the FLESH. If The HEAD has a new mind, how pray tell can the HEAD control the body which has a WILL (free or otherwise) of its own. I have seen this truth. Of this, I DO NOT BOAST, for I see your struggle and have walked in your sandals through the same DESERT and WILDERNESS. If I be on the OTHER SIDE of the Jordan, I do not know!! But I am assured that God will work a MYSTERY with ALL men.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live (the LIFE) should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them (ALL), and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away (died); behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us (the CHOSEN) to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us (the CHOSEN) the ministry of reconciliation (of the REST of the HARVEST);

And THIS is what we are saying…….

2Co 5:19 To wit (witness), that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESSPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is what we pray for you in the STEAD of Christ, that "...be ye reconciled to God....". THIS IS THE VERY BELIEF THAT IS TALKED ABOUT IN THE WRITS THAT YOU KEEP QUOTING. But alas, all we can do is pray, for we know that only God can bring one to Himself, for at this time you do NOT BELIEVE this. The Fruit has NOT YET digested. For it is unto the CHOSEN that….

Act 3:26 ……first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

We do NOT state that man does NOT suffer a chastisement in his fleshly life or the one he is resurrected to. Man will suffer punishment. God is making a SON and his SON has his OWN mind. Creation IS HIS body. It takes “spiritual” eyes to see this. Man’s WILL will not thwart the birth of his WHOLE son. ALL who have eaten the fruit will suffer, including the ELECT (Heb 12:6), for even…..

Rom 7:14 ….WE know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would (desire), that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would (desire) not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO GOOD THING: for to will (desire to do good) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I FIND NOT.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would (desire) I do not: but the evil which I would (desire) not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now (in this NEW LIFE) if I do that I would (desire) not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would (desire) do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law (Man's OWN will) in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Christ’s Law), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (and death) which is in my members.

And to this we CRY DAILY…..

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (given to him) I myself serve the law of God (unto LIFE); but with the flesh the law of sin (unto death).

You can do NO GOOD of yourself Mike. It is NOT IN you to do so. Man has NO will to choose good OR evil. “The issue is just that plain and simple” as you say, BUT it is complicated to the ones who do not have the “eyes” to see it. Fleshly Man will always choose evil. All GOOD things come from God and we credit Him for giving them. We take NO glory in the “opening of the eyes” of our dear sister Ilene. It is ALL of God. All we can do is what we are Committed to do which is Herald and Witness…..

2Co 5:19 ……… that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;

To this, with tears, I beg you and other for forgiving me for "being in the flesh and SPEAKING AS SUCH WHILE IN IT". I and my brethren ought to be more like Ilene, who is NOW knowing the joys and love of DYING TO IT, for she knows that her body is of the same lump as theirs. And may God Bless her the more.
Old 05-09-2010, 05:23 PM
1,711 posts, read 1,566,988 times
Reputation: 179
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
That includes all mankind.
  • Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.
It also includes the dearly beloved of God's soul.
  • Jeremaiah 12:7 I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies. 8 Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it.
Yet after God has "hated" them and "plucked them out" He will again have compassion on them.
  • Jeremaiah 12:15 And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
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