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Old 05-09-2010, 05:26 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,047,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eusebius,

It is interesting that you weave us as being at peace and having fun over the fact that ET exists?
Why is that? It saddens us, but our God is just, and He is just according to those who serve Him, as well as those WHO DO NOT. This is one of those areas that WE LEAVE UP TO GOD TO DECIDE, as His counsel and edict is none of our concern, or is it fathomable in understanding.

Maybe you should step back from the tree of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
God makes me sad? You mean according to you and your failed views of the gospel.....This is what I am talking about, you can't even interpret or discern me, let alone the scriptures.
You said ET saddens you, and you think God decides to send people to ET, so that means that God makes you sad. This is not a criticism because I hope it does sadden you. I was just pointing out what you said because I remembered it, and was glad you expressed concern for others, unlike the feelings some on the forum have expressed.

 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:44 PM
 
9,502 posts, read 5,152,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
That includes all mankind.

It also includes the dearly beloved of God's soul.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.


No...it's not all mankind.
 
Old 05-09-2010, 06:01 PM
 
Location: RI
19,396 posts, read 9,525,112 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.


No...it's not all mankind.
You have heard it said that those who love violence his soul hates

but

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

His own love towards who ?
 
Old 05-09-2010, 06:37 PM
 
9,502 posts, read 5,152,779 times
Reputation: 1037
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You have heard it said that those who love violence his soul hates

No, I haven't.
 
Old 05-09-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,330,103 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
You have heard it said that those who love violence his soul hates

but

7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

His own love towards who ?
mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children

For You, Lord, [are] good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.
 
Old 05-09-2010, 06:55 PM
 
Location: RI
19,396 posts, read 9,525,112 times
Reputation: 1348
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
mercy of the LORD [is] from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children

For You, Lord, [are] good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.
Doesn't change Romans 5 verses 7 and 8 in the slightest , it's hard to understand the OT when you attempt to with a carnal mind.

Jesus rebuked James and John for wanting to call fire down from heaven like Elijah of the OT actually did , solely because Jesus's message was rejected . He told them both they did not know what Spirit they were of. Both James and John and read and thought they had a scripture to justify requesting fire being called down from heaven, but guess what ? , they were thinking carnally and though they had a scripture they could not be further from the truth in their understanding of it.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-09-2010 at 07:07 PM..
 
Old 05-09-2010, 07:01 PM
 
1,566 posts, read 944,374 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

No...it's not all mankind.
Yes, it is all mankind at some time as the scriptures I posted showed that there is none righteous... Their feet are swift to shed blood.
  • Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
 
Old 05-09-2010, 07:29 PM
 
12,899 posts, read 6,974,942 times
Reputation: 2391
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Mike……. You have not addressed not one scripture I have posted. You would find yourself hard-pressed to try to explain them away. You keep quoting this “He who believes in the Son has eternal life…” doctrine and you don’t even know what it means. If you keep insisting on thinking about this in such a “carnal” nature, then ask yourself some serious questions then. We will look at this “carnally” then. Your doctrine leaves a plethora of humanity unspoken for. Millions of babies have died NOT knowing WHO Christ is, much less BELIEVING in Him. At that time, when Paul preached, there had to be MILLIONS of people that had “died” NOT been presented with the Gospel. What of them?? My 23 year old son is Down-Syndrome (spelling??) and is totally incapable of believing in the Cross of Christ, much less knowing what He did for him. What of him?? There are MILLIONS rite NOW who haven’t even eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. One ‘experiences’ this Fruit WHILE living there life.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This “evil” that so many think is attributed to the SATAN of their life is given to men BY GOD to HUMBLE him by it.

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (Heb: evil) travail hath GOD GIVEN to the sons of man to be exercised (Gk: abase, humble) therewith.

Everyone who matures past the “child” of life MUST eat the fruit. So many see it as a BAD thing that Eve ate of the fruit. If she had NOT eaten of it, how pray tell would she then have the knowledge of what GOOD was, much less EVIL.

One must stop thinking that all the “If thou does this then….or…if thou does that then….”, utterances of God to mean that He is giving Man a choice, and start thinking that GOD is wanting MAN to know WHAT he (man) is, which is a SINNER. God gave the Israelites these “If thou….” warnings and told Moses WHAT they would follow BEFORE they followed it, and some weren’t even born yet. Pharaoh was given the same “If thou….”, warnings and GOD HIMSELF hardened the Pharaoh to go against them. If one is to keep thinking of these things with such a “carnal” mind, one must then come to the conclusion that the ALL MIGHTY GOD did not actually KNOW where Adam was when he as the question “…..Where art thou?”

Think about it, it would NOT be so easy for God to do so if they were not ALL sinners (Do not the scripts say that “All have sinned”). This is why ALL have been seen by God as NOT believing, so that He can have mercy on ALL.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The thing that most, who think like you, do not see is that YOU obtained mercy for their (Israel’s) very UNBELIEF. And you “in times past have NOT believed”. So what better way to bring them ALL into unbelief so he can have MERCY on ALL of them (and for one to bring up such claims as in, but it only states “they MAY obtain mercy” and God “MIGHT have mercy”, fails to see that these words MAY and MIGHT were not even penned in the original.). They ALL will have mercy. The salvation of an UNBELIEVING Israel is a mystery that you do not understand as of yet, for the “milk” you drink will not reveal it.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (but alas, YOU think you have found it)

You must understand that one cannot BELIEVE in God unless He brings them to belief, so if one be NOT believing, it is God who blinds them so. Satan and God are NOT in some constant struggle as some may think, who do you think God sends to do this Evil work? For Satan nor man can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Was it not God who GAVE Satan power over all that Job had??

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

It begs to question here of just "WHO" the hand of God is. And was it not God who “moved” David to number Israel??

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he [the Lord] moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (any study of Hebrew and LXX here will show that this is talking of God doing the moving)


And who did He send to do it??

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Was not God responsible for the “evil spirit” that was between Abimelech and Shechem??

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

If one is blinded because they BELIEVE in a lie, then who is responsible for that LIE being told by a “false prophet”??

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a [lying] spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. (also II Chron. 18:21-22)

Man’s own ‘unawares’ are guided by God alone. Sampson’s own parents new that it was “unlawful” to take a wife of the Philistines (Ex. 34:12 & 16). But WHO moved Sampson to do such a thing??

Jdg 14:4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. (the “it” is what Samson was doing).

And what better way to accomplish this then to just allow man to be WHAT he is (sinner), to do what he does best, which is follow the flesh.

Jdg 14:3....Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.

Man is nothing more than a “sinner”, he does NO good apart from God moving him to do so. He simply does what he is created to do which is SIN. One cannot BELIEVE unless guided to believe. The belief you keep quoting is NOT the belief of a “believer” but rather the belief of a CHOSEN, and of an ELETE, which are the FIRSTFRUITS of ALL the Harvest (for there are STILL those under the law). The CHOSEN are given “Eonion Life”. The life you speak of is NOT what you think, they are given this life NOW, but yet shall they die the death of flesh. With a "spiritual" ear, this can be understood in many different ways. Of this, I can only say to ALL that, I am convince (for I am a man), that THIS is “Eonion Life”…….

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath (toward them who don’t have this life) through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (being given new life, HERE and NOW)

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (ARE dead): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify (Gk: put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live (the Life).

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is (NOW) passed from death unto life.(Eonian Life)

1Jn 3:14 We know that we HAVE passed from death (being DEAD) unto life (this LIFE), because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death (are STILL dead).

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am DEAD to the law, that I might live (this LIFE) unto God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified (DIED) with Christ: nevertheless I live (the LIFE); yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live (anew) by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we (NOW) be dead with him, we shall also (NOW) live with him:

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and LIVE?

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same (Christ’s) mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:2 That he (WE) no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh (IN DEATH) to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life (of death) may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange (you do think we are strange people, do you not??) that ye run not with them (the dead) to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick (LIVING) and the DEAD.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead (TO CHRIST), that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live (LIFE) according to God in the spirit.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead (to the FLESH), yet shall he live (the LIFE):

The DEAD are in the FLESH, the LIVING are a NEW CREATURE with a NEW MIND. So if one wants to hold on to the mind of the FLESH and THINK it has some type of control over itself (freewill), then IT TOO will DIE. God will NOT share His Throne with it. The ones who have LIFE have a NEW MIND, but are left within the FLESH. If The HEAD has a new mind, how pray tell can the HEAD control the body which has a WILL (free or otherwise) of its own. I have seen this truth. Of this, I DO NOT BOAST, for I see your struggle and have walked in your sandals through the same DESERT and WILDERNESS. If I be on the OTHER SIDE of the Jordan, I do not know!! But I am assured that God will work a MYSTERY with ALL men.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live (the LIFE) should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them (ALL), and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away (died); behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us (the CHOSEN) to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us (the CHOSEN) the ministry of reconciliation (of the REST of the HARVEST);

And THIS is what we are saying…….

2Co 5:19 To wit (witness), that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESSPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is what we pray for you in the STEAD of Christ, that "...be ye reconciled to God....". THIS IS THE VERY BELIEF THAT IS TALKED ABOUT IN THE WRITS THAT YOU KEEP QUOTING. But alas, all we can do is pray, for we know that only God can bring one to Himself, for at this time you do NOT BELIEVE this. The Fruit has NOT YET digested. For it is unto the CHOSEN that….

Act 3:26 ……first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

We do NOT state that man does NOT suffer a chastisement in his fleshly life or the one he is resurrected to. Man will suffer punishment. God is making a SON and his SON has his OWN mind. Creation IS HIS body. It takes “spiritual” eyes to see this. Man’s WILL will not thwart the birth of his WHOLE son. ALL who have eaten the fruit will suffer, including the ELECT (Heb 12:6), for even…..

Rom 7:14 ….WE know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would (desire), that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would (desire) not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO GOOD THING: for to will (desire to do good) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I FIND NOT.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would (desire) I do not: but the evil which I would (desire) not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now (in this NEW LIFE) if I do that I would (desire) not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would (desire) do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law (Man's OWN will) in my members, warring against the law of my mind (Christ’s Law), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (and death) which is in my members.

And to this we CRY DAILY…..

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (given to him) I myself serve the law of God (unto LIFE); but with the flesh the law of sin (unto death).

You can do NO GOOD of yourself Mike. It is NOT IN you to do so. Man has NO will to choose good OR evil. “The issue is just that plain and simple” as you say, BUT it is complicated to the ones who do not have the “eyes” to see it. Fleshly Man will always choose evil. All GOOD things come from God and we credit Him for giving them. We take NO glory in the “opening of the eyes” of our dear sister Ilene. It is ALL of God. All we can do is what we are Committed to do which is Herald and Witness…..

2Co 5:19 ……… that God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;

To this, with tears, I beg you and other for forgiving me for "being in the flesh and SPEAKING AS SUCH WHILE IN IT". I and my brethren ought to be more like Ilene, who is NOW knowing the joys and love of DYING TO IT, for she knows that her body is of the same lump as theirs. And may God Bless her the more.
There is no point in addressing any of what you have posted and I'm not in the mood to waste my time as you will not believe anything other than the false teachings of universalism.

I will simply refer people back to post #703 on this thread, concerning God's directive, permissive, and overruling will, and how it relates to man's God given volition. The universalists can't and don't wish to understand it. But for those who can, there it is.

I will also refer people to the following thread, which is now closed, but the first post has many links to articles that show Universalism to be false.

Universalism is Not Scriptural; Some Articles


Oh, I did just notice your statement at the end of the post about man not being able to choose good or evil. Here is a link that puts the lie to that statement...

Bible Life Ministries - God's Election and Man's Free Will

For the reasonable people reading this, don't be taken in and deceived by people who tell you that all men will be saved. The Scriptures are absolutely clear concerning the eternal nature of the unbelievers punishment in the lake of fire.

Likewise, don't take seriously these people who say that man doesn't have free will. The link posted above is just one that shows that man does have free will. Those who will take the time to read it with an eye for the truth will realize that. The scriptures themselves make it plain that man does have volition. In fact, man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. Those who want to know what that's about, here you go...

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l-warfare.html
 
Old 05-09-2010, 07:47 PM
 
309 posts, read 186,049 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no point in addressing any of what you have posted and I'm not in the mood to waste my time as you will not believe anything other than the false teachings of universalism.

I will simply refer people back to post #703 on this thread, concerning God's directive, permissive, and overruling will, and how it relates to man's God given volition. The universalists can't and don't wish to understand it. But for those who can, there it is.

I will also refer people to the following thread, which is now closed, but the first post has many links to articles that show Universalism to be false.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/970212-universalism-not-scriptural-some-articles.html


Oh, I did just notice your statement at the end of the post about man not being able to choose good or evil. Here is a link that puts the lie to that statement...

Bible Life Ministries - God's Election and Man's Free Will

For the reasonable people reading this, don't be taken in and deceived by people who tell you that all men will be saved. The Scriptures are absolutely clear concerning the eternal nature of the unbelievers punishment in the lake of fire.

Likewise, don't take seriously these people who say that man doesn't have free will. The link posted above is just one that shows that man does have free will. Those who will take the time to read it with an eye for the truth will realize that. The scriptures themselves make it plain that man does have volition. In fact, man's free will is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. Those who want to know what that's about, here you go...

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/885157-angelic-confllict-spiritual-warfare.html
And again, I (speak as a man) and ask "What of THEM??"
 
Old 05-09-2010, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,330,103 times
Reputation: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You said ET saddens you, and you think God decides to send people to ET, so that means that God makes you sad. This is not a criticism because I hope it does sadden you. I was just pointing out what you said because I remembered it, and was glad you expressed concern for others, unlike the feelings some on the forum have expressed.
ET doesn't sadden me, it is the choice of mankind that saddens me. Let me put this into perspective for you and everyone else.
If you, I or anyone else has a son, and we have a choice to make, let everyone die, or kill our son, so that THEY MIGHT LIVE, what would you choose?
I know this is a question you personally may not want to answer because of your situation in your son's death, but try....if you can.
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