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Old 05-09-2010, 11:03 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Misrepresentation can be out of good intention -- true. Leave alone the matter of whether misrepresentation should be done, think about someone who makes a claim on behave of God, and labels it as "absolute laws" ... aren't you concerned about these people? The doers seem to know what they are doing.
I'm more concerned about why people do/say what they do/say. Is it out of love or hate?


Did Rahab tell the truth here?
  • Joshua 2:1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Schittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there. 2 And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. 3 And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. 4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: 5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them. 6 But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof.
Did God approve?
  • Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
It seems to me that there is more to "liar" than meets the eye. It also seems to me that most of the "doers" believe that they are telling the truth. But which is the real lie? Telling a falsehood out of love (as it appears Rahab did) or telling a what one thinks is the truth in hate?

 
Old 05-10-2010, 05:54 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus is dead. The work was done.. There is no more sacrifice for sin.. what is it you want Jesus to be necessary for? All are saved, Jesus is victorious and has accomplished the ransom of all. What more can he do for mankind?
I'm not sure what you were meaning here exactly, but Jesus is alive - He was resurrected...
 
Old 05-10-2010, 06:55 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,849 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Then God wanted Israel to be under His wing, but guess what?
They rejected that. Looks like God's THELO was thwarted.
That was applied to Israels responsibility.

Quote:
Secondly, a little lesson for you in grammar...when a word has another word as it's root meaning, the root word DOES NOT define the word in question.
Never said that it did.
Quote:

This is a direct attempt to infuse its doctrine,

No, it is your attempt to say I have said things I did not say. The problem is with you.
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:12 AM
 
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This is a couple days old, but it needed replying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Matt Slick makes some logical errors here, namely in thinking that God does not get what he wants because people sin. What he should realize is that while people do sin right now, they will not always sin. God will achieve his desire that people not sin. It is a process, people sin now, but they won't always.

Likewise, God can achieve His desire to save all people, even though it may appear like they aren't saved right now. To say He can't do this because people sin is a logical fallacy.
A logical fallacy? Explain please.
I did explain above, apparently you didn't understand. Let me try again... Matt Slick assumes God didn't get what He wanted because people sin. So Matt then makes the general conclusion from this that God sometimes doesn't get His way or things don't go as He intended. But Matt is assuming a couple things:
1. God won't ever be able to achieve His desire for people to not sin
2. God didn't intend for people to be sinners at all. If God did intend for people to be sinners, then God did infact "get what He wanted". It is then a logical fallacy to use this as an example that God won't get what He wants in regards to saving all people.

Quote:
Quote:
But we should even consider this idea of God "not wanting" people to sin. I just posted this in the other thread. Look at these scriptures:

NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

According to scripture, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. Vanity is sin. Disobedience is sin. Yet God subjected and bound us over to it. Don't argue with me, that's what scripture says...
This argument does not support you theory. Lest you forget, the text says "may have mercy"..."may show mercy"....these are conditional based on what requirement on part of man....well... we look one chapter back in Romans 10:7....confess with thy mouth...remember that one?
You missed my point here completely. Please read what I said. My point was not that these scriptures support UR (although they do IMHO). My point was that these scriptures show that God intended people to sin, by subjecting them to vanity and binding them to disobedience. If you don't think God intended people to be sinners, then you need to address Romans 8:20 and Romans 11:32.

I think I will start another thread to address this topic separately...
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
sciota wrote concerning Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.:
This argument does not support you theory. Lest you forget, the text says "may have mercy"..."may show mercy"....these are conditional based on what requirement on part of man....well... we look one chapter back in Romans 10:7....confess with thy mouth...remember that one?
Actually the "may" is in the subjunctive case and is dependent upon what went before.

Here is an example: I put money in the bank more than sufficient so my checks may not bounce.
The non-bouncing of the checks is dependent upon my putting sufficient funds in the bank. They will not bounce.

Likewise: I have a pen in my hand. I loose my grip on the pen that it may be falling. The falling of the pen is dependent upon my loosing my grip upon it. It will fall should I let go of it.

And so according to Romans 11:32 the showing mercy upon all is dependent upon God locking them all up in disobedience. Without locking them up first he could not be merciful to them in unlocking them.
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:29 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually the "may" is in the subjunctive case and is dependent upon what went before.

Here is an example: I put money in the bank more than sufficient so my checks may not bounce.
The non-bouncing of the checks is dependent upon my putting sufficient funds in the bank. They will not bounce.

Likewise: I have a pen in my hand. I loose my grip on the pen that it may be falling. The falling of the pen is dependent upon my loosing my grip upon it. It will fall should I let go of it.

And so according to Romans 11:32 the showing mercy upon all is dependent upon God locking them all up in disobedience. Without locking them up first he could not be merciful to them in unlocking them.
Yes that is a good point, but not the point I was making.
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:30 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
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Its amazing to me that in 700+ posts on a thread about the word "HELL" that no one has actually answered the old testament verses about sheol yet (remember this thread is not supposed to be another UR vs ET debate). These were posted in the first few posts of the thread. They show that:

Sheol is a place of darkness, a place of silence, a place where everyone goes; there is no knowledge or device there; its where the dead "sleep"; the wicked go there in peace, even God is there (He's omnipresent); sheol is destroyed and people are redeemed from sheol.

Of course no one actually addresses those verses. Instead the "best" argument so far is that the Rich Man and Abraham had a conversation there, so therefore the old testament description of hades is "wrong" I suppose... ? Can scripture contradict scripture? Of course if we understand that Luke 16 is a parable with another meaning, then there is no contradiction. But that can't be right because that would defeat the idea of eternal torment in hell!


How about the descriptions of "furnace of fire", "unquenchable fire" - people assume these references to fire are talking about hell, simply because it mentions fire. So some more unanswered questions:

Why is "furnace of fire" supposed to mean hell?

Do you know God is a consuming fire? But surely we don't think God is hell.

In Mark 9:49, right after Jesus warns of Gehenna, He tells us that everyone will be salted with fire. Does that mean everyone is going to be salted with hell?



Its like people want to believe in "hell" instead of researching what the bible actually says about it...
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I'm not sure what you were meaning here exactly, but Jesus is alive - He was resurrected...
I didn't think I had to specifically address his resurrection .. My point was that the work is done. We don't need to sacrifice every time for sin. Christ doesn't die and rise again every time someone professes faith. There is no more sacrifice for sins so all sins that are covered were covered by that one act...

Jesus IS dead to this world, he is unseen regardless of his resurrection.
 
Old 05-10-2010, 09:38 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,380 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Its like people want to believe in "hell" instead of researching what the bible actually says about it...
Yes. It seems people are more afraid to question what they've been taught, than to question that God will burn people forever. They prefer to give their doctrine the benefit of the doubt over anything else.
 
Old 05-10-2010, 10:48 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Jesus is dead. The work was done.. There is no more sacrifice for sin.. what is it you want Jesus to be necessary for? All are saved, Jesus is victorious and has accomplished the ransom of all. What more can he do for mankind?
All may be saved proleptically, but not all experience salvation until the end of the ages.
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