U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-12-2010, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
Reputation: 1690

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Who says I hate my brother? God isn't making an offer because Jesus already did this. It's all hypothetical.

To the bolded part: you don't know what you are saying. If you would rather be with people forever than with Jesus forever, I don't know what to say to you. It doesn't seem you love God very much if you would choose them over Him.
To choose to love those you have seen IS to love God. That is what I am saying. Love God, who first loved you, by loving others.

It is all hypothetical... even the concept of salvation itself is hypothetical... All I know for sure is that upon realizing that God would not let even the least of us go because he loves us is when I truly began to see God. God's greatest wish is for us to love one another... not escape some afterlife filled with torment!

Also, you say that God won't force salvation or love... but is loving someone until they love you back forced love? or is it a fulfillment of God's will that men come to the knowledge of him through love?

 
Old 05-12-2010, 04:19 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,723,242 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
God does love everyone and this is why He allows them to go where they want to go. He loves them so much that He won't force them to be with Him. How is it love if it's forced upon?
Sorry, CW2L but that is ridiculous. He loves them so much that he won't force them to live in eternal bliss, and to let them choose to burn forever? Once they realize they made a bad choice and they are burning, then he forces them to stay. That is NOT love! Can't you see that? Who do you know that loves you in that way? Who do you love enough to let them choose to burn forever?
 
Old 05-12-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Sorry, CW2L but that is ridiculous. He loves them so much that he won't force them to live in eternal bliss, and to let them choose to burn forever? Once they realize they made a bad choice and they are burning, then he forces them to stay. That is NOT love! Can't you see that? Who do you know that loves you in that way? Who do you love enough to let them choose to burn forever?
I have heard some pretty strange things, but that one is a doozy.

I think this kind of thinking has something to do with the backlash against Calvinism. The Calvinists were right about many things, election being one of them, but the Arminians came along and started having a heart and could only come up with these kinds of strange explanations; You CHOOSE to burn and so on. You didn't used to hear this kind of talk back in the day. Going against Calvinism was heresy. But a lot of the churches out there are COMPLETELY (sometimes, HORRIBLY) off track and are saying some pretty strange things these days.

The Calvinists had this one right, for the most part. Nobody chooses. What people are missing is the BIG PICTURE!

They will get it one day.
 
Old 05-12-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,542 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Sorry, CW2L but that is ridiculous. He loves them so much that he won't force them to live in eternal bliss, and to let them choose to burn forever?
Yes, the same God who punished the entire mankind with death, misery, pain, disease, war, hunger, poverty etc, only because Eve sinned. But, yes he loves us so much he sent his son to die so that whoever believes in him would not suffer everlasting punishment, but would have everlasting life. Yet, there are millions who reject this gift from God. God was a man of his word about the earthly punishment and he is a man of his word about the everlasting punishment too. You are playing with fire denying it.
 
Old 05-12-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, the same God who punished the entire mankind with death, misery, pain, disease, war, hunger, poverty etc, only because Eve sinned. But, yes he loves us so much he sent his son to die so that whoever believes in him would not suffer everlasting punishment, but would have everlasting life. Yet, there are millions who reject this gift from God. God was a man of his word about the earthly punishment and he is a man of his word about the everlasting punishment too. You are playing with fire denying it.

He concludeth them ALL in UNBELIEF that He (GOD) may have MERCY ON THEM ALL!

We, the ELECT, just happen to be carrying the torch right now. It USED to be the JEWS, but the torch was taken away from them. The ELECT will always be held to a higher standard than the heathen.

"Go to HELL!" (Gehenna) Jesus told the Jews (RELIGIOUS elect at that time). And they did! A.D. 70.

Death was a punishment, if you want to look at it like that. But Jesus said that death was our ONLY HOPE!!!! We have to be let out of this PRISON! He had to let us die. What would happen if we had all been immortal???? Can you imagine?

I can barely stand 35 years of this cra*! Think of having to last in your flesh for millions of years. I think even the nicest among us would start getting cranky!

And the wars and violence come from US! That's right! The humans! Natural disasters, fine. God allows that. But what is He trying to TEACH US through the suffering????

PATIENCE! HUMILITY! LOVE!

He is NOT the MYTHOLOGICAL god with the thunderbolts! The JEWS thought He was! Why were they SACRIFICING their children??? They did not understand who GOD was or what He was doing!

Last edited by herefornow; 05-12-2010 at 06:22 PM..
 
Old 05-12-2010, 06:07 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,688,799 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Yes, the same God who punished the entire mankind with death, misery, pain, disease, war, hunger, poverty etc, only because Eve sinned. But, yes he loves us so much he sent his son to die so that whoever believes in him would not suffer everlasting punishment, but would have everlasting life. Yet, there are millions who reject this gift from God. God was a man of his word about the earthly punishment and he is a man of his word about the everlasting punishment too. You are playing with fire denying it.


Oh gee I'm skeeeerd.
 
Old 05-12-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,689,533 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Sorry, CW2L but that is ridiculous. He loves them so much that he won't force them to live in eternal bliss, and to let them choose to burn forever? Once they realize they made a bad choice and they are burning, then he forces them to stay. That is NOT love! Can't you see that? Who do you know that loves you in that way? Who do you love enough to let them choose to burn forever?
There are people who don't want to be with God. Why can't you understand this? Why would He force them to be with Him? He doesn't force us on Earth so what makes you think He'll change when we go to heaven? Look at Satan. Did God force Satan to be in Heaven with Him?
 
Old 05-12-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,384,963 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
There are people who don't want to be with God. Why can't you understand this? Why would He force them to be with Him? He doesn't force us on Earth so what makes you think He'll change when we go to heaven? Look at Satan. Did God force Satan to be in Heaven with Him?

Trust me. A lot of people do not believe or understand because the god of this world has BLINDED them. Blinded them to God's character, blinded them as to what God is doing, blinded them into thinking we are all alone and without hope, and on and on.

How many people would, truthfully, if they KNEW WITHOUT A DOUBT that there was a beautiful, peaceful, immortal, POWERFUL LIGHT, choose instead to be lit on fire! Have you ever been set on fire? I have! (don't ask)

NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY chooses to be set on fire for eternity! And the God I serve DOES NOT SET PEOPLE ON FIRE FOR ETERNITY!

Think about this!

People love the darkness because this is all they know.

He concludeth ALL in unbelief to have mercy on ALL!

He is busy reconciling things in HEAVEN and EARTH! What in the heavens needs to be reconciled???

Last edited by herefornow; 05-12-2010 at 07:36 PM..
 
Old 05-12-2010, 07:01 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,206,750 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you meant take the place of those in hell.

I think it's sad that your love for God is conditional. This is hard for you to imagine, I know, but let's just say when you die, hell really does exist. What would you say to God? You wouldn't love Him anymore? God does love everyone and this is why He allows them to go where they want to go. He loves them so much that He won't force them to be with Him. How is it love if it's forced upon?
If I go to heaven and find out that most are in hell, i will be in hell also regardless, unless god forces me to forget all the people in hell whom i love. I could not rest in peace and in joy knowing that even one person is in eternal torment. So its a moot point. And if God is willing to force me to forget the ones I love who are in hell, or even persuade me to stop loving them, then why cant he persuade the ones who would be in hell to love him?

Also, nowhere in the scriptures does it say that people choose to go into the lake of fire. The scriptures say that they are literally cast or thrown into the lake of fire. I mean think about it, if you take the lake of fire to be a literal lake of fire, how can you rationally believe that most of the people ever created would willingly walk into that lake of fire in the knowledge that they could never leave it?

To God we as humans are like children compared to a very wise parent, or even infinitely less by comparison. Would you let your child go swimming in a pool of sharks because you love them so much that you are going to let them do whatever they want regardless of the consequences? And lets say you want them to love you freely, but you know that they are deceived by the most powerful man they have ever known, and you have the power to reveal the truth to them certainly and destroy the deception that blinds them, would you choose not to reveal that truth about your love for them and allow them to continue to be deceived even though it means that they will be mortally effected by the fact they are deceived?

According to the scriptures God has the power to change the hearts and minds of even the most wicked and murderous people who ever walked the earth Such and Nebuchadnezzar or Saul or Tarsus ... So if God has the power to do such a thing and has done it before for countless people in the past who did not deserve it, why wouldn't he do it for everyone else?

If a Buddhist monk who has lived his life peaceably and with love for his fellow man dies, God will send him to everlasting hell because he wasn't a Christian? While a man who has murdered countless people, even Christians(such as Paul), and then one day Christ reveals himself to them in person miraculously while they were on their way to commit more murder so that this person suddenly changes his mind about what he believes, he gets to live in everlasting bliss? Where is the justice in that?

Or what about a 21 year old kid who was raised in Africa as a Muslim all his life and gets murdered by a another person who lives until the age of 80 and on his death bed that murderer decides to repent and believe in Jesus, why does the 21 year old who was murdered long before he turned 80 go to hell for ever while his murderer who lived 4 times as long and had 4 times as many years to choose to believe in Christ get to live in eternal bliss?

Where is the justice in this? It is a mockery of true justice, and a mockery of the true character and love of God.



Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-12-2010 at 08:14 PM..
 
Old 05-12-2010, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,542 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9418
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
He is NOT the MYTHOLOGICAL god with the thunderbolts! The JEWS thought He was! Why were they SACRIFICING their children??? They did not understand who GOD was or what He was doing!
They sacrificed then to moloch, a false god. They lost their way, much like the modern day atheists, cultists, universalists etc who do not believe the word of God anymore.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top