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That is a good way of putting it.....UR is the getting away from
doctrine
Seriously? I'm starting to get a little fed up with the jabs here and there from folks who think I've gone off the deep end and have gone to the "dark side". Remember, I have a mind of my own and I will go wherever God leads me and right now He's leading me away from that awful thing called eternal torment doctrine. Can you honestly say you completely embrace people burning in flames forever and forever? I mean, really THINK about that. And then, study it like I'm doing. I would appreciate some breathing room.
True Kat...
It is sometimes hard to admit for some, but the concept of "free will" does not exist. One cannot choose Christ, He has chosen us.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And it is funny to me because I actually DO believe in Free-will... We make choices that affect our future, freely. I know what is right from what is wrong because I have made wrong choices, suffering through the consequences. Because one choice (evil) ultimately results in correction then it to is GOOD. How then can one also suffer for eternity for choosing evil?
I don't believe free will has anything to do with an afterlife. You cannot choose what you cannot see. It is all speculation anyway. One thing we can be sure of is that Love is of God as the bible teaches.
True Kat...
It is sometimes hard to admit for some, but the concept of "free will" does not exist. One cannot choose Christ, He has chosen us.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
from the beginning God chose you to be saved: How?
1. sanctifying work of the Spirit
The Holy Spirit...3rd person of the Trinity, the person who creats faith
Sanctify...2: to free from sin, 4: to make productive of holiness or piety (Websters)
Through belief...in the truth. "belief" isn't enough. "belief" must be founded in the truth. Jesus says " I am the way and the truth"
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
the chance to belief in the truth ends at death
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Though a person dies, as long as he believes in Christ ...lives.
Seriously? I'm starting to get a little fed up with the jabs here and there from folks who think I've gone off the deep end and have gone to the "dark side". Remember, I have a mind of my own and I will go wherever God leads me and right now He's leading me away from that awful thing called eternal torment doctrine. Can you honestly say you completely embrace people burning in flames forever and forever? I mean, really THINK about that. And then, study it like I'm doing. I would appreciate some breathing room.
Diagnosis: Forum Overload
Treatment:
DEEP BREATH! A couple smacks
Read this 10 times: Isaiah 52:7 How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
Ahh...Ilene...your eyes are being opened more and more each day. Good for you. I used to believe in a lot of these traditional beliefs, but God dragged me (and I mean dragged, kicking and screaming) to Him. I just didnt want to believe what He said. Drinking the "milk" of the Word is one thing, but eating the real "meat" of it is another. So yes, the one talking of "apples" is still drinking the "milk". This is why Paul calls them "babes". You are maturing past a babe, good for you.
Yes they are Joe, thanks. I have come kicking and screaming also.....(just ask ANYONE of the universalists) I've still got a LOT to learn but I can now say I do not believe in eternal torment any longer. I have been shown the truth through scripture and I still can't believe my eyes. But my heart is just bursting with joy and love!!
Here are two examples of why We cannot truly simplify God's Will with our finite mind other than he loves his creation...US:
SODOM AND GOMORRAH
Genesis 19:16 While he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
This fits the analogy of the fireman...
But then...what of this?
17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life, look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
This is after being literally yanked by the angel/fireman to escape the fire...
I won't even attempt to give an explanation to this!
I trust the LORD my saviour and redeemer, for he IS the way...and his way leads to life
Peace!
But it is important to note that scripture says even Sodom and Gomorrah will be restored (Ezek 16). So while Sodom & Gomorrah commited grave sins and evils, and suffered terrible judgment for it, they will be restored. This would include Lot's wife (who was turned into a pillar of salt!).
Diagnosis: Forum Overload
Treatment:
DEEP BREATH! A couple smacks
Read this 10 times: Isaiah 52:7 How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
This thread is for those who wish to honestly study what the scriptural meaning of the word "hell" is. Discussions about unquenchable fire, undying worms, furnace of fire, and the lake of fire may also be on topic but I would like to focus on the specific meaning of the word "hell" first.
What may surprise many people at first is that the word "hell" is not actually in the original scriptures. It is actually a translation from 4 words: sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. And only 2 of these words have the same meaning.
This is reflected by looking at various English bibles, and we can see how different translations have translated the above words differently. For example:
KJV has the word "hell" 54 times.
NLT has the word "hell" 20 times.
NIV has the word "hell" 14 times.
YLT has the word "hell" 0 times.
Another thing which may surprise people, is that "hell" is no where described as eternal, even in the KJV! Do a search on biblegateway.com for "eternal hell" to verify this yourself.
Why the vast difference in how this word "hell" is translated? Largely it is due to the fact that it is based on the above 4 words: sheol, hades, gehenna, and tartarus. Each of these has their own meanings, so it actually makes little sense to translate it as one single word "hell".
"Hell" in English brings to mind this idea of the wicked being in eternal torment in fire, or eternal separation from God. However when we look at how the above words are used, we will see there are some discrepancies with common belief and what scripture actually says.
If God did not exist, man would have to create him. Some of my questions would be.
Who is God and what does he look like?
Who is Satan and what does he look like?
Where is Heaven??
Where is Hell??
I can only believe we were delivered from the far reaches of the universe millions of years ago...we are just an experiment!
Hell to me will be when our STAR, the SUN, ages and grows larger and it will engulf our little solar system in FIRE! Our star, the SUN is so violatile and exibits so much energy it awes all people on the planet Earth!!!
Look on the internet to ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS, it'll answer all questions regarding the HUMAN and not HUMAN RACE!
Since "turning to the dark side" I have come to realize that the more time and energy I spend in anger and frustration... the less time and energy I have to love. So why bother holding on to it?
What's there to be hung up on.....the scriptures and what it says?
I present this case, because I read flakey remarks such as Death is destroyed for everyone, there is no sin in our reconciled world, the elements of material creation will dissolve, so forth, on and on.
So then I ask, in your UR reconciled world, where Death is destroyed, there is no more sin, etc etc, in scripture there is only one age where this is acheived, and that is the NH and E, and there in that world, there is still sin....outside the place where there is no more sin....which is called the New Jerusalem, where all these things occur in the NH and E, so your reconciled creation and mankind, is a failed attempt of eisegesis.
Yeah I am hung up, because this UR view contradicts itself. UR doesn't look at the finer details of what the text says, it disregards them, or from what I have seen on this forum especially, is it is outright avoided, when a UR person can't deal with it...or like Mystic says, They were savages!
LOL
I will take the scripture over your thoughts, and it says what it says, whether you, or anyone else wants to accept it or not. God's will? Are you referring to 1 Tim 2? Because if you are, guess what? What you think it says, does not say what you import into it, because the text, disproves this line of reasoning. I trust God's true, Divine Holy character, He did what He said He would do, and guess what?........"It is finished". The question is.....do you?
IMO, you can't see the forest for the trees. You are looking at "the finer details" in Revelation and it's full of mystery and symbolism. It's probably not even meant for us to understand much of it in the first place. God is love. God is holy. God is just. God is merciful. God is faithful. God is patient. God loves His enemies. I could go on and on, but it probably wouldn't matter as long as you choose not to believe in His true character.
You don't understand "It is finished." God sent Jesus to be the redeemer of mankind, the Savior of the world. Jesus completed that mission and it was finished. He asked God to "forgive them for they know not what they do," not, "Forgive them if they make the wise choice to believe in Me."
And I didn't say anything about God's will in my post.
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I'm starting to get a little fed up with the jabs here and there from folks who think I've gone off the deep end and have gone to the "dark side". Remember, I have a mind of my own and I will go wherever God leads me and right now He's leading me away from that awful thing called eternal torment doctrine. Can you honestly say you completely embrace people burning in flames forever and forever? I mean, really THINK about that. And then, study it like I'm doing. I would appreciate some breathing room.
I've still got a LOT to learn but I can now say I do not believe in eternal torment any longer. I have been shown the truth through scripture and I still can't believe my eyes. But my heart is just bursting with joy and love!!
