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That is so wrong! Hell is the reason Jesus paid such a HIGH price on the cross Jesus believed it that's why He provided the way for us to escape it. He left His throne and glory to die an excruciating death to keep us out of hell.
That's right ILNC. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23), which is separation from God in time. For any member of the human race who dies without having believed in Christ for salvation, that spiritual death which again is separation from God in time, is parlayed into eternal separation from God which first manifests itself in the temporary prison of Hades in that part known as Torments (Luke 16:23), and then after the Millennium, having been resurrected out of Hades to stand before Christ in his resurrected body, he is ordered by Jesus into the lake of fire which is the Second death-eternally separated from God in the place prepared for the devil and his angels-the eternal fire-the lake of fire-the furnace of fire-the place where their worm never dies-or as many call it-hell. (Rev 20:11-15).
Genesis 2:17 says, ''but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
But that is not a correct translation. For some reason most translations don't bring this passage into the Engllish properly. What the passage in the original Hebrew says is...
Genesis 2:17 and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually-separation from God in time) you shall die (physical death).
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit in disobedience to God. His relationship with God was severed-broken off. As a result of his fallen condition and newly acquired old sin nature, Adam became subject to physical death which in his case happened many hundred's of years later.
Thereafter, all members of the human race are born physically alive but spiritually dead-already under condemnation. And apart from believing in Christ for eternal salvation, a person will die already condemned and on his way to hell.
The penalty for sin is death, and ultimately that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the Second death, which is not cessation of existence, but is conscious torment in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon ( Rev 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50).
As Jesus graciously warned in Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-05-2010 at 12:29 PM..
The us is anyone who chooses to ask Him to forgive them of their sins and into their heart, ALL not NOT going to do that.
Exactly...especially those who believe. The scriptures focus on the gospel as the way to salvation, and its focus is on MANKIND, not MANKIND POST MORTEM, but man who lives and breathes, who can hear and praise, who can bow and serve, who can witness and love, and who can reject all of the above.
The soul dies (The soul that sinneth dies according to Ezekiel).
When we speak of sheol and hades, it has this meaning of grave or "realm of the dead", but it also has a meaning of "unseen". They go to the unseen place - no one knows exactly what or where it is - it is unseen.
But the idea is if you die, you are dead, so there is effectively no consciousness and from your perspective there is no time passing either. The bible likens death to "sleep" in a number of places. It is a very deep sleep - I believe when you die, it will be like you are a having the best sleep of your "life" , and the next moment you will be aware of will be you awakening to the resurrection - just like when you have a really good sleep at night - you put your head down on the pillow and the next moment you are awake refreshed in the morning.
When we look at how God created man, we can see that man does not have a soul, but instead he became a soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That verse might help your understanding Ilene. God took dust to make a body, He breathed life ("spirit") in the body, and the man became a soul. He wasn't a soul to begin with, he only became a soul with the combination of body and spirit (breath). Take away either the body or the spirit (breath), and the soul would die - cease. Yet the soul can still be restored with a new body and spirit. When we are resurrected we will be given new spiritual bodies.
Hope that helps.
If I may I will add a different twist to man becoming a soul.
The dust man was created with a spirit, soul and body, and when God breathed His breath of life/birth of Christ into the dust man became a LIVING SOUL.
Up until the birth of Christ in ones life, one is but a man of dust.
I beleive scripture shows this throught, are souls are all dead in truspasses and sin until Christ makes us alive.
So IMO there are dead souls and living souls.
Unregenerated man = dead soul
regenerated man= living soul
Yes I think I read your view before, and to be honest I'm not sure on it. But that's ok.
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Based on Rev 14 we see it says those who worship the beast and take its mark will be "tormented" with burning sulfur.
But I'm sure you know the word there for "tormented" is the Greek "basanizo" which along with the meaning of "torment", also has the meaning of (from blueletterbible.org): "test with a touchstone, totest for purity"
Furthermore the "sulfur" is actually brimstone which comes from the Greek "theion" which has a meaning of (also from blueletterbible.org): divineincense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
So the lake of fire could in theory have a meaning of a "divine lake of healing and purification". Whether its occupants are dead or not I'm not sure. I believe the "second death" reference is probably a reference to the old man dying for those who are in the lake of fire. The old man must die for all of us at some point... this all gives us additional information as to what the purpose of the lake of fire is. "divine", "purification", "ward off disease", etc.
Also, for those who think this is some kind of literal physical torture in fire forever, notice it is done in the presence of the lamb and His angels. Are we to believe that Christ and the angels watch everyone burn in the lake of fire forever and ever? How sadistic would that be...
Thanks for your thoughts.
It is my understanding that Revelation 14:10 has to do with Babylon's destruction and not the lake of fire.
It is like Sodom and Gomorrah in which those cities were a specimen
Jud 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us,a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
We know the fire of those cities have expired many years prior to Jude being written. But it is possible the smoke of their torment (which lasted but a day . . . the torment that is) but the smoke went up for years afterward as a warning to those around?
Did you even read that link? Here's a quote from it, "Wherever you find the expression "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in the New Testament, know of a certainty that it is a description of the judgment and doom of lost, unsaved men who will not inherit and not even enter the kingdom. It is never used to describe the fate of saved people."
Thanks for posting!! This is so true
Regardless of the conclusions of the link... the information is good. The way we interpret the expression, and the way THEY who wrote it interpreted it are different. It is good to keep that in mind when reading the bible.
Notice that it also brings up some common misconceptions about who is outside weeping and gnashing and that it is exclusion from the KINGDOM (within) and not exclusion from HEAVEN or SALVATION.
The expression cannot be synonymous with HELL or a description there of because it is for "children of the kingdom". IOW they are the ones who WERE SUPPOSED to be in the kingdom but are not.
I just post the info.. I assume your are intelligent enough to draw your own conclusions.
According to Finn... there is an invitation for all to be saved but not all are saved. If the man who came improperly dressed responded to the invitation then why is he cast out? Why are his teeth gnashing? He accepted the invitation to be saved.
So then do we conclude that even those who respond to the invitation are in danger of exclusion? What does it mean that he was not properly dressed? And what is the kingdom?
And the ultimate question: Does weeping and gnashing of teeth indicate remorse, envy? or does it indicate anger...the indignant anger of those who thought they SHOULD be in the kingdom but are excluded.
Does all this indicate that the outer darkness (where weeping and gnashing of teeth occurs) is hell where people are tortured eternally?
POINT: There is no reason to connect "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and "the outer darkness" with hell.
Remember that darkness is contrasted with light as ignorance is contrasted with wisdom and blindness is to sight.
Father forgive them for they know not what they do...
That's right ILNC. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23), which is separation from God in time. For any member of the human race who dies without having believed in Christ for salvation, that spiritual death which again is separation from God in time, is parlayed into eternal separation from God which first manifests itself in the temporary prison of Hades in that part known as Torments (Luke 16:23), and then after the Millennium, having been resurrected out of Hades to stand before Christ in his resurrected body, he is ordered by Jesus into the lake of fire which is the Second death-eternally separated from God in the place prepared for the devil and his angels-the eternal fire-the lake of fire-the furnace of fire-the place where their worm never dies-or as many call it-hell. (Rev 20:11-15).
Genesis 2:17 says, ''but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
But that is not a correct translation. For some reason most translations don't bring this passage into the Engllish properly. What the passage in the original Hebrew says is...
Genesis 2:17 and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually-separation from God in time) you shall die (physical death).
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit in disobedience to God. His relationship with God was severed-broken off. As a result of his fallen condition and newly acquired old sin nature, Adam became subject to physical death which in his case happened many hundred's of years later.
Thereafter, all members of the human race are born physically alive but spiritually dead-already under condemnation. And apart from believing in Christ for eternal salvation, a person will die already condemned and on his way to hell.
The penalty for sin is death, and ultimately that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the Second death, which is not cessation of existence, but is conscious torment in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon ( Rev 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50).
As Jesus graciously warned in Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Two points:
1. Christ came to defeat death. For ALL.
2. Christ came to save those who are "apollymi".
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost [Greek: APOLLYMI].
So being dead or "apollymi" (destroyed) is neither permanent nor irreversible, because Christ came to save these who are dead and destroyed. I think He will be able to fulfill this mission because that is why the Father sent Him: to save the world and take away the sin of the world, and to destroy death and hades (sheol).
Would you be able to address my post #384 on the five verses that describe what the lake of fire is? Thanks.
That's right ILNC. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23), which is separation from God in time. For any member of the human race who dies without having believed in Christ for salvation, that spiritual death which again is separation from God in time, is parlayed into eternal separation from God which first manifests itself in the temporary prison of Hades in that part known as Torments (Luke 16:23), and then after the Millennium, having been resurrected out of Hades to stand before Christ in his resurrected body, he is ordered by Jesus into the lake of fire which is the Second death-eternally separated from God in the place prepared for the devil and his angels-the eternal fire-the lake of fire-the furnace of fire-the place where their worm never dies-or as many call it-hell. (Rev 20:11-15).
Genesis 2:17 says, ''but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
But that is not a correct translation. For some reason most translations don't bring this passage into the Engllish properly. What the passage in the original Hebrew says is...
Genesis 2:17 and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually-separation from God in time) you shall die (physical death).
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit in disobedience to God. His relationship with God was severed-broken off. As a result of his fallen condition and newly acquired old sin nature, Adam became subject to physical death which in his case happened many hundred's of years later.
Thereafter, all members of the human race are born physically alive but spiritually dead-already under condemnation. And apart from believing in Christ for eternal salvation, a person will die already condemned and on his way to hell.
The penalty for sin is death, and ultimately that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the Second death, which is not cessation of existence, but is conscious torment in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon ( Rev 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50).
As Jesus graciously warned in Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Thanks for your thoughts.
It is my understanding that Revelation 14:10 has to do with Babylon's destruction and not the lake of fire.
It is like Sodom and Gomorrah in which those cities were a specimen
Jud 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us,a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."
We know the fire of those cities have expired many years prior to Jude being written. But it is possible the smoke of their torment (which lasted but a day . . . the torment that is) but the smoke went up for years afterward as a warning to those around?
I see what you are saying - it doesn't specifically mention the lake of burning fire and sulfur, only the fire without the lake.
What do you believe Babylon is? IMHO it is the man-made false church systems of the world. We are told to "come out of her (Babylon)"...
Exactly...especially those who believe. The scriptures focus on the gospel as the way to salvation, and its focus is on MANKIND, not MANKIND POST MORTEM, but man who lives and breathes, who can hear and praise, who can bow and serve, who can witness and love, and who can reject all of the above.
Then if there is no focus on MANKIND POST MORTEM why speculate on what happens after life?
IOW how can you believe Jesus died to save people from hell when the focus is not POST MORTEM... and the bible states Jesus came to save the lost, destroyed, ungodly from sin and death.
If Jesus came to save the lost, destroyed, and ungodly from hell.... well that was a lost cause wasn't it? Talk about setting yourself up for failure!
If you truly believe there is POST MORTEM punishment for rejection of the gospel then how can you say the primary focus of scripture is on MANKIND, not MANKIND POST MORTEM?
I don't think Jesus would have been dumb enough to agree to save the lost, destroyed, and ungodly from HELL if he believed that the lost, destroyed, and ungodly would be spending eternity there anyway.
That's right ILNC. The penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death (Rom. 5:12, 6:23), which is separation from God in time. For any member of the human race who dies without having believed in Christ for salvation, that spiritual death which again is separation from God in time, is parlayed into eternal separation from God which first manifests itself in the temporary prison of Hades in that part known as Torments (Luke 16:23), and then after the Millennium, having been resurrected out of Hades to stand before Christ in his resurrected body, he is ordered by Jesus into the lake of fire which is the Second death-eternally separated from God in the place prepared for the devil and his angels-the eternal fire-the lake of fire-the furnace of fire-the place where their worm never dies-or as many call it-hell. (Rev 20:11-15).
Genesis 2:17 says, ''but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
But that is not a correct translation. For some reason most translations don't bring this passage into the Engllish properly. What the passage in the original Hebrew says is...
Genesis 2:17 and from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying (spiritually-separation from God in time) you shall die (physical death).
Adam died spiritually the moment he ate the fruit in disobedience to God. His relationship with God was severed-broken off. As a result of his fallen condition and newly acquired old sin nature, Adam became subject to physical death which in his case happened many hundred's of years later.
Thereafter, all members of the human race are born physically alive but spiritually dead-already under condemnation. And apart from believing in Christ for eternal salvation, a person will die already condemned and on his way to hell.
The penalty for sin is death, and ultimately that means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire which is the Second death, which is not cessation of existence, but is conscious torment in a condition of utter ruin and uselessness.
Perish (622) (Apollumi from apo = away from or wholly + olethros = state of utter ruin <> ollumi = to destroy <> root of apollyon ( Rev 9:11) = destroyer) means to destroy uttery but not caused to cease to exist.
Apollumi as it relates to men, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well-being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The gospel promises everlasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence).
Apollumi then has the basic meaning of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for its intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt 13:42,50).
As Jesus graciously warned in Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
AMEN! Great post as always!
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Jesus believed it that's why He provided the way for us to escape it. He left His throne and glory to die an excruciating death to keep us out of hell.
, and the next moment you will be aware of will be you awakening to the resurrection - just like when you have a really good sleep at night - you put your head down on the pillow and the next moment you are awake refreshed in the morning.
