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Old 05-08-2010, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,985 posts, read 47,311,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again, readers of the forum, 1 Tim 2:4-6 has nothing to do with Divine decreed will of God imposed upon all men.
It has nothing to do with the draw of the Holy Spirit regenerating man into salvation.

Jesus said.... when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32).
Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32).
He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).
In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6) The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

This may very well be the most difficult issue to deal with because of the meaning “all men” has in English. Does “all men” in the Bible always mean “all men without exception” or “all men without distinction.” Even in our everyday language we may use “everyone” or “all” to not mean the whole world but just a certain group. If I tell my wife that “everyone is going to lunch today” that does not mean the whole of humanity will be eating with me. This is where context comes into play. Just as in 1 Tim 2:4-6, "all men" is ONLY referring to those men in the previous verse, and IT IS THOSE VERY MEN, that all living lives of GODLINESS AND HOLINESS.

Not to mention the term itself, doesn't imply God's divine decree, so the Universalist, has no FOUNDATION in using 1 Tim 2 for his theory, and as a matter of fact, he can neither use any verse to his liking, to infuse such a doctrine that contradicts the scriptures.
That's right? Did God desire Adam and Eve to sin? No. Did he desire Satan to fall? No. Does he desire all men to be sinful? No. 1 Timothy 2:4 says God desires all men to come to knowledge, it does not say all men WILL come to the knowledge. There is a world of difference there. To cling to this verse and try to use it as proof of UR shows wanton disregard for the rest of the Bible, and such disregard is always a telltale sign of a false teaching.

1 Tim 2:4 tells us of God's preference on the matter, it does not say he will force everyone into salvation. We know what God wants, and the rest is up to us: accept the gift, or reject it. God will not force-feed it to anyone.

Take it or leave it

II Th 1:6-9
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

 
Old 05-08-2010, 06:51 PM
 
9,301 posts, read 8,311,297 times
Reputation: 7328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Seriously? I'm starting to get a little fed up with the jabs here and there from folks who think I've gone off the deep end and have gone to the "dark side". Remember, I have a mind of my own and I will go wherever God leads me and right now He's leading me away from that awful thing called eternal torment doctrine. Can you honestly say you completely embrace people burning in flames forever and forever? I mean, really THINK about that. And then, study it like I'm doing. I would appreciate some breathing room.

Blessed are you when people speak bad of you in the name of Christ, for yours is the Kingdom. They have also spoken badly about God's true prophets.

Woe to you when people speak well of you, for they have also spoken well of the false prophets.


It is paraphrased but that is the feel of what is said in the Bible.
Keep Studying.

You will find a lot of attacks from zealots and often times they are the ones that like to twist things out of context.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 06:59 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.

1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''

It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.

2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.

Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.

God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.

C.I Scofield wrote...

quote
(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).

The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.

(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.
unquote

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).

3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''

God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.

God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.

Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)

It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.

It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.

It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.

It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.

It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day'' Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

See the following links...

Lesson 7 - The Will of God Part 2

D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)


By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
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Mike, no matter who you quote, no matter how you slice it, God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is based solely on what Christ did. You and sciotamicks don't answer to me on this and ignore me on this which shows you really have no answer for it.

God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4 is based upon what Christ did in 2:6. Because Christ ransomed all mankind God must free them all into His salvation.

I have posted this over and over again and yet neither you, twin.spin or sciotamicks have answered to it. Why? Because you can't.

All who are ransomed must be freed. No ifs ands or buts about it.
I have explained this a number of times on other threads. The work of Christ on the Cross freed man from the slave market of sin. The work of Christ on the Cross removed sin as a barrier between man and God. The issue in salvation is not sin, it is 'What think you of Christ?' The fact that all sins have been paid for doesn't save anyone. It merely takes man out of the red, off the debit side of the ledger. It does NOT place man in the black, onto the credit side of the ledger. What puts a person on the credit side of the ledger is having the righteousness of God imputed to him and being pronounced justified by God. That happens at the moment of faith in Christ.

This is basic doctrine. Here is a simplistic presentation of it...

Justification



This shows once again just how completely people will close themselves off from the truth. It has been shown from the scriptures that God allows man act contrary to His will and to reject Him. That anyone who can read what was said about the nature of God's will and then still say that God will save everyone is inexcusable, though not surprising.

Last edited by Michael Way; 05-08-2010 at 07:23 PM..
 
Old 05-08-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,582,561 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJenkins602 View Post
Blessed are you when people speak bad of you in the name of Christ, for yours is the Kingdom. They have also spoken badly about God's true prophets.

Woe to you when people speak well of you, for they have also spoken well of the false prophets.


It is paraphrased but that is the feel of what is said in the Bible.
Keep Studying.

You will find a lot of attacks from zealots and often times they are the ones that like to twist things out of context.
Thanks TJ!! Welcome! I am a former zealot.....not even 2 months ago. Even so, the universalists on this forum have most graciously forgiven me for attacking them and that, THAT speaks volumes to me. It tells of just how Christ centered they really are and filled with God's love.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,408,923 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I didn't use an emotionally driven rebuttal. I used a very well thought out exegetical response for which all you can do is have an emotionally driven reply and just one more red herring to get us off the real trail.
You used no exegesis. One verse proving that same verse doesn't cut it.
Try again.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 07:40 PM
 
Location: God's Country
23,000 posts, read 34,288,819 times
Reputation: 31628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
ILNC, 40 different people wrote the bible, but it was inspired by God. The bible, however, is not God and should not be worshipped. The bible, or an interpretation of it, has become an idol to some people. The bible is meant to guide us into a deeper relationship with God.

Christians should decide on basic truths and test the "spirits" against them. That "spirit" could be something you were taught or an interpretation of the bible you are studying. Test everything against the rock solid truth. You will, however, have to decide in your heart through God's guidance what that rock solid truth is, that will be the guideline for the rest of your understanding.

Here are some of the truths I choose to believe for my spiritual rock:

God is the creator.
God is love.
God is holy.
God is just.
God is merciful.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus died for the sins of mankind.
Jesus is the Savior.
God says to love our enemies.
We are to love God and love our neighbor as ourself.
God says to overcome evil with good.

If any other scripture "appears" not to line up with these rock solid truths, I have to dig deeper and find out why, because I know I must not understand it if it disagrees with these facts. I didn't always think this way, but now that I do, the bible is being pieced together like a puzzle that is revealing the face of God!
God Himself is the author of all Scripture.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,480,126 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Thanks TJ!! Welcome! I am a former zealot.....not even 2 months ago. Even so, the universalists on this forum have most graciously forgiven me for attacking them and that, THAT speaks volumes to me. It tells of just how Christ centered they really are and filled with God's love.
Nothing to forgive... Your attacking (as you call it) was seeking in my mind. It is amazing how taking away that looming fear of hell can cause such peace within one's heart and mind as well as acceptance of one another. It's amazing and with humans alone impossible... but we know that with God.. all things are possible.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:19 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,103,782 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
God Himself is the author of all Scripture.
You're confused. He inspired it. God and Paul are not the same person, for example.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,480,126 times
Reputation: 1737
I didn't see a response to this (unless I posted it in another thread) but this is one HOT thread! LOL so I will post again.

In Mark 10 Jesus tells the rich man that he must give away his wealth in order to be saved...

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it ise to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”


Why would Jesus say that with man this (salvation) is impossible... but with God all things (salvation) are possible if not because it is a total work of God and nothing a man can do? If so, why would there be any need for hell when it is possible for God to cause the salvation of all?


Why would God be the only factor in salvation yet some remain unsaved unless God chose to have them remain unsaved? Some claim others aren't saved because of this or that but Jesus himself states that with man salvation is IMPOSSIBLE. If salvation is impossible for man then why is it up to man to ACCEPT salvation?
 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:23 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,103,782 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I didn't see a response to this (unless I posted it in another thread) but this is one HOT thread! LOL so I will post again.

In Mark 10 Jesus tells the rich man that he must give away his wealth in order to be saved...

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it ise to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”


Why would Jesus say that with man this (salvation) is impossible... but with God all things (salvation) are possible if not because it is a total work of God and nothing a man can do? If so, why would there be any need for hell when it is possible for God to cause the salvation of all?


Why would God be the only factor in salvation yet some remain unsaved unless God chose to have them remain unsaved? Some claim others aren't saved because of this or that but Jesus himself states that with man salvation is IMPOSSIBLE. If salvation is impossible for man then why is it up to man to ACCEPT salvation?
Great post. Wish I could rep that one!
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