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Old 04-24-2010, 09:28 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,874,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
And then he says ->

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Romans 9 (if you would care to read it entirely) is about God's Sovereign Choice. Roman 9:25-26 is speaking about God choosing OT Israel. Romans 19, Paul is reminding that what God did to Pharaoh, (God hardening Pharaoh's heart) was a result of Pharaoh rejecting God.

Romans 9:14-16
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."


Romans 9:30-32 is called Israel's Unbelief

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Many today are like Israel and Pharaoh...after rejecting the truth:
God hardens the heart so as not to believe it and they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Katzpur said "Well, I'll be darned"..... Jesus agrees "by your words you will be condemned."Matthew 12:37
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,403 posts, read 21,067,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
First of all, God wants all to come to repentance and be saved, but most refuse; they don't want the real God of the Bible.
So which God do you think they want?
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:00 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,729,289 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by airō View Post
I'm not one for labels, so ya'll can take it up with God:

God wills John 1:12-13; Eph. 1:5, 11
God draws John 6:44
God grants John 6:65
God calls 1 Thess. 2:12; 2Thess. 2:14; 2Tim. 1:9; 1Pet. 2:9
God appoints Acts 13:48; 1 Thess. 5:9
God predestines Rom. 8:29; Eph. 1:5, 11
God prepares Rom. 9:23
God causes 1 Cor. 1:30
God chooses 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; Eph. 1:4
God purposes Eph. 1:11
God delivers and transfers Col. 1:13
God saves 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
God makes us alive Eph. 2:5
God pours out His Spirit Titus 3:6
God brings us forth James 1:18
God justifies Rom. 8:30; Titus 3:7
God sanctifies 1 Thess. 5:23
God glorifies Rom. 8:3
He sure does!!
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:48 PM
 
701 posts, read 661,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
You said in the other thread, "Been there. Done That. No thanks," to Christian Universalism, but this is exactly what we believe. If you believe one has to do anything at all to get saved, that is a work of man.

Edit: Didn't see your other post that, "God initiates salvation, and man responds out of free will within the sovereignty of God," until after I posted this. That is a work of man, though, so it can't be both ways.

Salvation is a cooperative process. God gave the cross to all mankind, but that doesn't mean that all mankind will be saved. Why then does the bible say "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." That word believe is huge, and it is man's part to play in the process. Why would God ask us to believe in Him if he is either going to: A) force everyone to believe(meaning accept His gift of eternal life. Satan believes in Christ, as far as His existence goes) in Him at some point, or B) pick and choose who He will force to believe in Him. What it gets down to is what does it mean to "believe in him"? I remember hearing the following story once:

- A stuntman was performing and act at Niagara Falls, walking over it on a tightrope, and upon reaching the crowd on the other side received a huge applause. Now after the applause died down, he asked the crowed "who believes I can push this wheelbarrow across the tightrope?" and the entire crowd shouted, they believed, except one person who remained silent. Now, the promoter of the event had promised to pay anyone who "believes" $100, however the only person who received $100 was the one person who remained silent. When the people at the bak of the crowd, made it up front to see why they didn't get the money, they saw the one person who remained silent, sitting in the wheelbarrow. -

That is the "belief" that God seeks from us. The Holy Spirit speaks to every human being and we choose to follow or reject that which He says. the more we obey Him the louder and clearer His voice gets, the more we disobey Him, the dimmer and fainter His voice gets.
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:01 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,729,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
What it gets down to is what does it mean to "believe in him"?
That's only half of the equation. The other half is what it means to have eternal life.

John 17:
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

People are confused about what it means to be spiritually dead vs. "going to hell."
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,658,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howardspader View Post
Can one turn away from God so much that there is no turning back to Him? Somewhat analogous to point of no return.

If He starts a work in us then He finishes it. So we may turn away but at some point He still saves us.
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,658,101 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Salvation is a cooperative process. God gave the cross to all mankind, but that doesn't mean that all mankind will be saved. Why then does the bible say "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." That word believe is huge, and it is man's part to play in the process. Why would God ask us to believe in Him if he is either going to: A) force everyone to believe(meaning accept His gift of eternal life. Satan believes in Christ, as far as His existence goes) in Him at some point, or B) pick and choose who He will force to believe in Him. What it gets down to is what does it mean to "believe in him"? I remember hearing the following story once:

- A stuntman was performing and act at Niagara Falls, walking over it on a tightrope, and upon reaching the crowd on the other side received a huge applause. Now after the applause died down, he asked the crowed "who believes I can push this wheelbarrow across the tightrope?" and the entire crowd shouted, they believed, except one person who remained silent. Now, the promoter of the event had promised to pay anyone who "believes" $100, however the only person who received $100 was the one person who remained silent. When the people at the bak of the crowd, made it up front to see why they didn't get the money, they saw the one person who remained silent, sitting in the wheelbarrow. -

That is the "belief" that God seeks from us. The Holy Spirit speaks to every human being and we choose to follow or reject that which He says. the more we obey Him the louder and clearer His voice gets, the more we disobey Him, the dimmer and fainter His voice gets.
So do you believe God is all knowing - knowing the end from the beginning? If so, then why would He create you if He knew you would eventually be lost forevermore?
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:40 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,708,576 times
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No.
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:29 AM
 
701 posts, read 661,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So do you believe God is all knowing - knowing the end from the beginning? If so, then why would He create you if He knew you would eventually be lost forevermore?
I don't believe that God "created" me, in the way that your question seems to imply. God created Adam and Eve, A/E chose to procreate and their descendants chose to procreate, and so forth and so on, till we get to my parents who chose to procreate and here I am. I do believe that I am "created" by God, but I am also the product of my parent's choice. The moment I was conceived, I became a human being with a choice to make one day. Upon my birth, God and Satan will each work, within their means to, gain my obedience to their will. Sometimes I may choose God, sometimes I may choose Satan. Over the course of my life I will form a relationship of some sort with one or the other, and that relationship will greatly influence the choices I make in life. This is the road of every one of A/E descendants. God knows each heart and knows, at the end of every life, what choices each person made and whether or not they were a choice for God or against God. Just because God already knows what choice each one of us will make, doesn't mean He can take away our ability to make that choice without taking away our free will.
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,658,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
I don't believe that God "created" me, in the way that your question seems to imply. God created Adam and Eve, A/E chose to procreate and their descendants chose to procreate, and so forth and so on, till we get to my parents who chose to procreate and here I am. I do believe that I am "created" by God, but I am also the product of my parent's choice. The moment I was conceived, I became a human being with a choice to make one day. Upon my birth, God and Satan will each work, within their means to, gain my obedience to their will. Sometimes I may choose God, sometimes I may choose Satan. Over the course of my life I will form a relationship of some sort with one or the other, and that relationship will greatly influence the choices I make in life. This is the road of every one of A/E descendants. God knows each heart and knows, at the end of every life, what choices each person made and whether or not they were a choice for God or against God. Just because God already knows what choice each one of us will make, doesn't mean He can take away our ability to make that choice without taking away our free will.
Our choices are always evil. Jesus Christ claimed a copyright on all Good Works which means if I make a choice to do something that is Good then I cannot credit myself for it. The credit goes to Jesus Christ therefore that means the only choices I can claim are those that result in evil.
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