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Old 04-26-2010, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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James, sorry for mispelling your name. I can see it now, but a mild for of psychological dislexia set it.....about Gehenna and Hades..Gehenna was ONLY termed for the Jew - specifically the apostate and was used pictorially as a place of torment and fire, in regards to punishment, and Hades was purely used in a covenantal aspect, as the spiritual destination due to the original sin that bore upon all of mankind, but most specifically for the Jew, whether righteous or apostate. Gehenna was used as a metaphor for the destination of the wicked POST Ressurection and GWTJ.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,712,214 times
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"hell" is a mistranslation of ancient Hebrew and Greek words

Hell is the Germanic netherworld of the Godess Hel

for further info you might want to read this:

biblical studies: The Soul and the Unseen

biblical studies: The Gehenna of Fire

Concordant Expositions (html format)

Gehenna in uninspired Jewish sources:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercy...gment_ch8.html

Chagigah, f. 27, I. R. Shimon ben Lakish said the fire of Gehenna has no power over transgressors of Israel.

Eruvin, f. 19, I. Those who have incurred a temporary Gehenna are rescued by Abraham.

Nedarim, f. 8, 2. There is no Gehenna in the world to come according to Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish.

Nishmath Chajim, f. 82, 2. The righteous, who have committed some sins, quickly pass through hell.

Avoda Zara, I. Gehenna is nothing but a day in which the impious will be burned.

Gibborim, f. 70, I, Nishmath Chajim, p. 83, I, Jalkuth Shimeoni, f. 83, 3, &c., all say that twelve months is the period of punishment in Gehenna.

Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4: “The wicked stay in Gehenna till the Resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it, redeems them.” The same treatise (f. 16, 2), says even of the worst sinners, like those of Sodom, and spies who betray Jews, that they are punished “till the time decreed is expired,” and then allowed to transmigrate.

Midrash Rabba, I, 30. Avoda Zara, 3. “After the last judgment Gehenna exists no longer.”

Zijoni, f. 69, 3: “There is only a thread's thickness between Paradise and Gehenna.”

Asarah Maamaroth, f. 85, I: “There will hereafter be no Gehenna.”

Jalkuth Shimeoni, f. 46, I: Gabriel and Michael will open the 8,000 gates of Gehenna and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles.

Jalkuth Chadash, f. 57, I: “The righteous bring out of Gehenna imperfect souls.”

Jalkuth Koheleth: “God created Paradise and Gehenna, that those in the one should deliver those in the other.”

Jalkuth Tehillin: “The praises of God that ascend from Gehenna are more than those that ascend from Paradise, for each one that is a step higher praises God.”

Rabbi Bar Nachman: “The future world (the Olam habba) will have its Gehenna, but the last times will have it no more.”

Joreh Deah ad fin.: “As is commonly said, ‘The punishment of wicked Israelites in Gehenna is twelve months.'”*(1)

*(1) Other passages may be found quoted in Windet's learned book, De Vita functorum statu, pp. 154-157 (1663).

Rabbi Akiba, “the second Moses, the second Ezra.” “The duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months.” Edyoth, ii. 10.

In the Othjoth, which is attributed to him, the dead say the Amen to the Kaddish (prayer for the dead) of Zerubbabel; and Gabriel and Michael set them free through the 40,000 gates of Gehenna.

Zohar: “Noah stayed twelve months in the Ark because the judgment of sinners lasts so long.”

So too Rabbi Jose, Rabbi Jehudah, Rabbi Eliezer, Buxtorf, s.v. [ please insert Hebrew text from the book here ] R. Kimchi on Ps. I: “Their soul shall perish with their body in the day of death.”

Bartolocci (Bibl. Rabbinica, ii. 128-162), after elaborate examination, concludes that the Jews did not believe in a material fire, and thought that such a fire as they did believe in would one day be put out.

R. Jacob Chayif in En Jacob: “Some, after they have been punished in Gehenna, will perhaps be deemed worthy of the life to come.”

R. Menahem on Sam. xxv. 29: “The wicked are in chains till the time when they go out hence.”

Maimonides, “the eagle of the doctors,” makes Gehenna in its worst form equivalent to Kareth, “excision,” and explains it not of endless torments but of annihilation. The “future age” (Olam Habba) is absolute universal bliss and holiness (Preface to the Thirteen Articles of Faith).

R. Moses Almosny, in Tephillah Mosheh, says even of the extremely wicked – “If any one have sinned much he shall be punished much; afterwards however he shall gain his rest.”

Rabbi Albo gives three grades to Gehenna: I. Gehenna for a year, and then blessedness. 2. Gehenna for a year, and then annihilation. 3. Aeonian (which does not necessarily mean “endless”) chastisement for none but the worst renegades. – Ikkarim, iv. 30, 40. [See p. 208, n. 2.)

Midrash on Koheleth: “What is the distance between Paradise and Gehenna? According to Johanan a wall; according to Acha a palm-breadth; according to other Rabbis only a finger-breadth.”

Rabbi Abarbanel in Miphaloth Elohim, viii. 6: “The soul will only be punished in Gehenna for a time proportionate to the extent of its faults; and then annihilated.”
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,488 times
Reputation: 205
That's great stuff Sven! I know you appreciate I copy and file it.
__________________________________________________ ____

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
James, sorry for mispelling your name. I can see it now, but a mild for of psychological dislexia set it.....about Gehenna and Hades..Gehenna was ONLY termed for the Jew - specifically the apostate and was used pictorially as a place of torment and fire, in regards to punishment, and Hades was purely used in a covenantal aspect, as the spiritual destination due to the original sin that bore upon all of mankind, but most specifically for the Jew, whether righteous or apostate. Gehenna was used as a metaphor for the destination of the wicked POST Ressurection and GWTJ.
I'm not denying there was an Israel of old, Jew and Gentile division; but, Israelites are not Israelis, and I just don't get this, "...most specifically for the Jew" kind of exegesis! Its simply weird to me. There's nothing so stated in these texts. Many people have been taught a re-erecting of "the central wall of the barrier," or, as KJV has, "the middle wall of partition between us." This has been "broken down" (KJV) or, "razed" (CLT) by the Prince of Peace Who makes us one. I know the explaining away of this too; but, so many parts of Scripture have been falsely taught as not relating to us. I've read these reasonings all my life and I've not found the underlying premise to be quotable from Scripture. Why do you tolerate such complicating assumptions?

Ephesians 2:14-16 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:38 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,831,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
God intended something by saying "hades" and in other places he meant something else by saying "geehena" or He wouldn't have spelled them differently. Nowhere does Scripture say that hades is gehenna, or tartarus is hades. The lake of fire is never called hell in the Bible. By pasting one English word over several differing words in the original, often adding together other references, men have created their own unbiblical categories.

God has spoken. What we endure entirely too much of is men's interpretations of what God meant to say rather the actual words chosen by the Holy Spirit to convey God's revelation. If we would bow our hard heart and turn our stiff necks to what God says or does not say, limiting our expression of faith to the actual words of the Bible, verified by the original Scripture, we would make more rapid progress entering into the Divine nature. It is by the use of concordances we can implement the authority of Scripture to which there is at least widespread lipservice.
In the same token, people who reject God's seriousness about unbelief and the eternal consequences of such have also created their own unbiblical categories.

You speak of "original Scripture"...none exist, yet God promises that his words will never pass away (unlike heaven and earth). Prior to the Dead Sea scrolls the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were copies from the 9th and 10th centuries AD. The D.S.S. predate any known copies, dated to 125 BC and AD 68.

The Dead Sea scrolls are as close to the originals as we have, the difference between the Dead Sea scrolls and those of 9th and 10th Ad is less than 5% (most of that is pen strokes). The Bible (KJV published during KJ) is entirely based on the 9th and 10th century.

The argument that "by pasting one English word over several differing words in the original" is saying that God doesn't have control over what He says he does.....and that is unbelief. But this I do agree with: people have also created their own unbiblical categories. They have come up with "purgatory", "reincarnation" "the three different kingdoms of Mormonism" "Outer darkness" "Jihad".

Last edited by twin.spin; 04-26-2010 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
In the same token, people who reject God's seriousness about unbelief and the eternal consequences of such have also created their own unbiblical categories.
"Eternal" is an English word inappropriately used for long periods of time of which there are at a minimum of five as well as before and after these "ages."
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You speak of "original Scripture"...none exist, yet God promises that his words will never pass away (unlike heaven and earth). Prior to the Dead Sea scrolls the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were copies from the 9th and 10th centuries AD. The D.S.S. predate any known copies, dated to 125 BC and AD 68.

The Dead Sea scrolls are as close to the originals as we have, the difference between the Dead Sea scrolls and those of 9th and 10th Ad is less than 5% (most of that is pen strokes). The Bible (KJV published during KJ) is entirely based on the 9th and 10th century.
Petitio principii "begging the question"
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The argument that "by pasting one English word over several differing words in the original" is saying that God doesn't have control over what He says he does.....and that is unbelief.
While there are varying degrees of good and bad translations, you'll never get me to believe that they are equally "inspired" as the originals. Neither will you convince me examining what is in the original languages is twisting Scripture. As well, I don't have to comprehensively know a language before I can study certain words of it in depth.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,386,811 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
In the same token, people who reject God's seriousness about unbelief and the eternal consequences of such have also created their own unbiblical categories.

You speak of "original Scripture"...none exist, yet God promises that his words will never pass away (unlike heaven and earth). Prior to the Dead Sea scrolls the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were copies from the 9th and 10th centuries AD. The D.S.S. predate any known copies, dated to 125 BC and AD 68.

The Dead Sea scrolls are as close to the originals as we have, the difference between the Dead Sea scrolls and those of 9th and 10th Ad is less than 5% (most of that is pen strokes). The Bible (KJV published during KJ) is entirely based on the 9th and 10th century.

The argument that "by pasting one English word over several differing words in the original" is saying that God doesn't have control over what He says he does.....and that is unbelief.
The lying pen of the scribe or the scribes have interpreted it falsely, and written wrong comments on it.

Jeramiah 8:8,9


God lets a lot of stupid and terrible things happen on this planet. The corruption of LOVE is one of them. He has allowed His word to get lost, to be interpreted in strange ways (obviously, or we wouldn't have a billion different denominations), and to be stomped on.

Considering how meticulous the scribes were in their copying, there is probably less likelihood of their altering of the text. However, this possibility cannot be completely ruled out. There is some evidence of this having been done on occasion.

It would appear that there may have been personal gain for scribes in their misinterpretation of the Law. From: The Falsifying Scribes

It is not considered unbelief, in my opinion, to question fallible men and their commentaries. These are men that get up grouchy in the morning, bark at their spouses, and sometimes even end up killing people that disagree with them.

FALLIBLE.

I find it interesting that Revelation speaks of what will happen to people that add or detract to that book, so it CAN be done and has been done by people that are greedy and power-hungry. They rule this planet, they have started wars, and they have caused untold amounts of grief.

There are many people who are honest and have gotten caught up in the despicable acts that are done in the name of religion. ALL religion has honest people at the bottom.

Kind of how the underworld works. It has those at the top pulling the strings and the guys at the bottom doing honest work as a cover........

Last edited by herefornow; 04-26-2010 at 04:36 PM..
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:05 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,691,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
How will you?....by:


1. Denial
  • There is no hell...I don't believe in it
2. Rationalizing God
  • That isn't God's nature
  • That is unjust
3. Believing another gospel
  • an angel from heaven speaks it
  • all will eventually be restored
  • prove yourself worthy
  • faith and works
  • other revelations
3. By questioning God\Jesus
  • "What is truth?" John 18:38
  • "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?" John 8:48
  • "By what authority are you doing these things?" Matthew 21:23
  • "And who gave you this authority?" Mark 11:28
  • "What is this teaching?" Luke 4:36
  • "How can you say that we shall be set free?" John 8:33
  • "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right..Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?". Luke 20:20-22
  • "You are not yet fifty years old,....and you have seen Abraham!"
  • "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 10:25
  • "What must we do to do the works God requires? "John 6:28
For those who say such things ...Jesus asks:

"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?"
"Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"

"Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' " ?

No one escapes Gods judgment, and that is a great thing.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,386,811 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
"Eternal" is an English word inappropriately used for long periods of time of which there are at a minimum of five as well as before and after these "ages."

Petitio principii "begging the question"

While there are varying degrees of good and bad translations, you'll never get me to believe that they are equally "inspired" as the originals. Neither will you convince me examining what is in the original languages is twisting Scripture. As well, I don't have to comprehensively know a language before I can study certain words of it in depth.

Very true. I'm doing my best.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
That's great stuff Sven! I know you appreciate I copy and file it.
__________________________________________________ ____


I'm not denying there was an Israel of old, Jew and Gentile division; but, Israelites are not Israelis, and I just don't get this, "...most specifically for the Jew" kind of exegesis! Its simply weird to me. There's nothing so stated in these texts. Many people have been taught a re-erecting of "the central wall of the barrier," or, as KJV has, "the middle wall of partition between us." This has been "broken down" (KJV) or, "razed" (CLT) by the Prince of Peace Who makes us one. I know the explaining away of this too; but, so many parts of Scripture have been falsely taught as not relating to us. I've read these reasonings all my life and I've not found the underlying premise to be quotable from Scripture. Why do you tolerate such complicating assumptions?

Ephesians 2:14-16 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it.

James,

I am aware of what you present, however, it has nothing to do with Gehenna and the typological usage of this word, along with Hades.

A quick question for you......

Why are there 2 types of Dead in the Ressurection?

One from the Sea
One from Death and Hades
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:32 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,423,557 times
Reputation: 5147
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
The lying pen of the scribe or the scribes have interpreted it falsely, and written wrong comments on it.

Jeramiah 8:8,9


God lets a lot of stupid and terrible things happen on this planet. The corruption of LOVE is one of them. He has allowed His word to get lost, to be interpreted in strange ways (obviously, or we wouldn't have a billion different denominations), and to be stomped on.

Considering how meticulous the scribes were in their copying, there is probably less likelihood of their altering of the text. However, this possibility cannot be completely ruled out. There is some evidence of this having been done on occasion.

It would appear that there may have been personal gain for scribes in their misinterpretation of the Law. From: The Falsifying Scribes

It is not unbelief to question fallible men and their commentaries. These are men that get up grouchy in the morning, bark at their spouses, and sometimes even end up killing people that disagree with them.

FALLIBLE.

I find it interesting that Revelation speaks of what will happen to people that add or detract to that book, so it CAN be done and has been done by people that are greedy and power-hungry. They rule this planet, they have started wars, and they have caused untold amounts of grief.

There are many people who are honest and have gotten caught up in the despicable acts that are done in the name of religion. ALL religion has honest people at the bottom.

Kind of how the underworld works. It has those at the top pulling the strings and the guys at the bottom doing honest work as a cover........
Isaiah 43:27 Thy first father have sinned, and THY TEACHERS have transgressed against me.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, SCRIBES and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay thithe of mint and anise and cummin, and HAVE OMITTED THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF THE LAW, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Peace!
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