U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:26 AM
 
696 posts, read 766,000 times
Reputation: 66

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Just show the scripture that says
"The most important question ever asked by Jesus..." 'How will you escape being condemned to hell?' "

Where did Jesus ever ask that "most important question"?
The author has rightly addressed you in the original post. The burdon is not on the Christian as you suppose, the burdon is on you to prove that those placed in the lake of fire and are eternally seperated from God are removed. In doing so you remove a verse, twist it, and attempt to reinsert it to the whole ignoring the massive amount of scripture it then contradicts.

The burdon is not on the author, but is on you. He has correctly stated the Scriptural Christian position. It is upon you to challenge it, but in doing so you will have to remove all that contradicts the verses Universalists claim. Or you can perhaps leave it and use speculation and conjecture running down the rabbit hole.

As I have said and is supported by Scripture, those who are called ask the question, "What must we do to have life?" Those who are not called do not care about either. By this you can not reconcile your Universalism unless you can prove that there is an age of finite time beyond the age such as this fruitless "aion" arguement Universalism clings to. So if you agree with me in what I have said that those who ask of Jesus for "life", now prove to me how they will ask in your concept of the age to come. And then support it by scripture. As I have said the burdon is on you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-29-2010, 11:02 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,723,747 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Just show the scripture that says
"The most important question ever asked by Jesus..." 'How will you escape being condemned to hell?' "

Where did Jesus ever ask that "most important question"?
He is talking about Matthew 23:33. Jesus is speaking of gehenna and talking to the scribes and Pharisees.

Young's Literal Translation:

29`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous,

30and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets;
32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2010, 01:43 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,453,770 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Just show the scripture that says
"The most important question ever asked by Jesus..." 'How will you escape being condemned to hell?' "

Where did Jesus ever ask that "most important question"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
The author has rightly addressed you in the original post. The burdon is not on the Christian as you suppose, the burdon is on you to prove that those placed in the lake of fire and are eternally seperated from God are removed. In doing so you remove a verse, twist it, and attempt to reinsert it to the whole ignoring the massive amount of scripture it then contradicts.
1. No he didn't rightly address me in the original post. In the OP he did not quote any verse which says Jesus warned "How will you escape being condemned to hell."

2. That is an easy burden to prove people are not eternally separated from God. But it is hard for you to believe. It never says concerning the LOF that they are eternally separated and can never be removed from that death. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 proves death will be destroyed and they will come out of the 2nd death.

3. I ignore no scripture to prove these things. Show me one I ignore and I will prove I don't.

Quote:
The burdon is not on the author, but is on you. He has correctly stated the Scriptural Christian position. It is upon you to challenge it, but in doing so you will have to remove all that contradicts the verses Universalists claim. Or you can perhaps leave it and use speculation and conjecture running down the rabbit hole.
Actually the burden is on the author if he is setting up a thesis which he wants to prove.

Quote:
As I have said and is supported by Scripture, those who are called ask the question, "What must we do to have life?" Those who are not called do not care about either. By this you can not reconcile your Universalism unless you can prove that there is an age of finite time beyond the age such as this fruitless "aion" arguement Universalism clings to. So if you agree with me in what I have said that those who ask of Jesus for "life", now prove to me how they will ask in your concept of the age to come. And then support it by scripture. As I have said the burdon is on you.
I also believe there are the called and the not called. The called, God will give faith to. Of course I can reconcile this with Universalism. God is calling just so many to be in His celestial kingdom and earthly kingdom for the next two ages to live through the duration thereof. God is not saving all mankind in the age to come (millennium) nor in the final age after that (new earth). Just because He is not going to save all mankind within those two ages does not mean He won't ultimately. I believe He will at the end of the ages/eons/aionas.
There need be no infinite age beyond this age for God to save all mankind.

BTW I see Bright Hope For Tomorrow answered my question:

29`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous,

30and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets;
32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

But note there is no HELL Jesus warned people of, but rather Gehenna.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2010, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,468 posts, read 21,230,304 times
Reputation: 17687
Mod says

This thread is getting close to being locked..Please stay on topic..and be a little nice and respectful of each other's doctrines when you post..
__________________
Moderator of:
Non Romantic Relationships
Parenting, and sub-forums
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2010, 08:17 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,829,925 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
The problem they cant get around sir is not that one asks how can one escape Hell, but that those who believe ask, "How can we have life?" Those who wouldnt care or believe are not concerned with either and as such they would not have asked. Perfect examples are the false teachers of this age which are the scribes and pharisees.

Scripture need not address such questions. It is for those who have laid the claim to life eternal not for those who have no such claim. As such an unbeliever would ask a questions such as this.

Those who come to Christ ask for life eternal and He has set the condition for life eternal. That we must believe. In our salvation we bear the gospel to men, but not that we are agents or a force in salvation. Salvation is a work of the Lord in the individual. And each of those that He has worked in as asked the question, "How might I have life?"

Thank You. I appreciate that your understanding of the larger picture.
This question was asked by Jesus Matthew 23:33 in a confrontation tone, addressing the unbelief of the Pharisee's.

I'm pleased to know that you have the spiritual understanding that this should be applicable to eternal damnation in hell that unbelievers suffer the fate due to unbelief, not to the destruction of Jerusalem. Not one person is "condemned" to a grave in which we are buried. For there is a ressurection of all people. The "grave" is only temporary, what comes after the grave is eternal.
The other point which you clearly stated is correct...."Those who come to Christ ask for life eternal and He has set the condition for life eternal. That we must believe..."


"A certain ruler asked him, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 18:18

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 10:25

The two questions combined would be:

"How will you escape being condemned to hell" "to inhert eternal life?"




Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Thank You. I appreciate that your understanding of the larger picture.
This question was asked by Jesus Matthew 23:33 in a confrontation tone, addressing the unbelief of the Pharisee's.

I'm pleased to know that you have the spiritual understanding that this should be applicable to eternal damnation in hell that unbelievers suffer the fate due to unbelief, not to the destruction of Jerusalem. Not one person is "condemned" to a grave in which we are buried. For there is a ressurection of all people. The "grave" is only temporary, what comes after the grave is eternal.
The other point which you clearly stated is correct...."Those who come to Christ ask for life eternal and He has set the condition for life eternal. That we must believe..."


"A certain ruler asked him, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 18:18

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Luke 10:25

The two questions combined would be:

"How will you escape being condemned to hell" "to inhert eternal life?"



How do you justify combining the two (or three) questions?

Right before the verse in Matthew is this: "Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!" Was the forefathers sin disbelief?

Wasn't it the SIN of their forefathers to follow other laws and other gods?

Then how can you combine those two... I could combine two verses and come up with alot of things.

You are assuming that escaping being condemned to Gehenna is the only way to inherit eternal life... how does that make sense?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2010, 10:26 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,607 times
Reputation: 60
Eusebius.....This is true. Gehenna is a long way from being what some would call 'hell'. Why a translation would even translate the name of a 'Place' is beyond me. It should have never been translated in the first place. It should have been left as 'Gehenna' all along, then there would not be such confusion in the matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2011, 06:07 AM
 
2 posts, read 1,531 times
Reputation: 12
I posted a long reply on Isaac Asimov in Hell. I'll just say here that Jesus upheld the Old Testament as true history. Genesis, according to Him, is the real history of Creation. Both New and Old point to Jesus as God; He claimed to be God. The hard evidence supports His claims; the Bible is the hardest evidence in history of any belief system. Do I accept Darwin or Christ as ultimate authority? Darwin wrote "We may well assume..." over 600 times. Jesus did not assume. He claimed to be the Beginning and the End. He spoke of Heaven and Hell as real places, and wanted (wants) everyone to be with Him, ultimately in the New Earth, the New Heaven, real places. I can assume that both are choices. Hell is a place where there is no presence of God, it is where one chooses to exist. The Lake of Fire --- is it a literal place? a lake would have more solidity than fire, could they co-exist? Or is it the fire that is present in people who have have no God in them? ie, without God, would we be eaten up in our own acid? Without God inside, can a being ever repent? That's a big chance. If one is wrong, and Jesus is right, then the consequences touch not only you, but everyone you influence -- family, friends .... Critical thinking, start with Antony Flew, atheist who later believed in God. Non-critical thinking, accept unproven scenarios, without experimental proof. Neither God or accidentalism can be proven by experimental empirical science. But greater faith is required to believe that accidents create anything and everything, than by the Smartest Creator, who leaves His imprint on everything -- the world, history, prophecies ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2011, 07:48 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,690,362 times
Reputation: 639
Jesus answered the question he asked in Matthew 23:33


Jesus was saying it is always trustworthy to call upon the name of the Lord.

Mt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2011, 10:47 AM
 
2,278 posts, read 2,106,985 times
Reputation: 3262
Here's the problem I have with the title of this thread - Jesus never asked that question. Accepting Jesus as your Savior in order to escape hell is not at all biblical. It's what they call "fire insurance faith."

Accepting Christ is about coming to realize that we need Him and realizing His amazing love for us. Otherwise, it's being done, not out of a love for Him as God, but out of a selfish motive and fear.

Our motives matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top