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Old 04-24-2010, 08:10 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Jesus says:
"I tell you the truth"...not "some of the truth". The "requirement" is to believe the truth. When you say not so...you're ultimatly calling Jesus a liar.

For example: Jesus says...
Mark 10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."


Those against Jesus speaking the truth say:
No.....not never.
"All means all"
the kingdom isn't heaven
that isn't eternal


other verses:
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (Jesus calling himself God)
Thanks for proving what I wanted you to realize. You can't show a verse with a requirement to believe in a literal hell for salvation, because there isn't one.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 846,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
All the verses about "fire" (43-48) is about the torment of unbelievers. Undoubtedly verse (49) would be talking about the same...
Mark 9:33-50 (KJV)...
[33] And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? [34] But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest. [35] And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all. [36] And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, [37] Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. [39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. [40] For he that is not against us is on our part. [41] For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. [42] And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. [43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [49] For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [50] Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. (Mar 9:1-50 KJV)

That you think "hell fire" is for ungodly unbelievers (those for whom Christ came, sought and died,) yourself being somehow exempt, has betrayed your attempted exigesis. Clearly, "...he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them..." (Mk 9:35) is the context of vs.43-50. His continuing words also are marked as words to disciples: "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another." (vs.50) Actually, the trueness of what Jesus says would not be affected by whether He was speaking to His disciples or the multitudes. "For every one shall be salted with fire..." That this must must be "every one" for His words to be true is self evident. All one needs to do to manifest how fraudulent is the meaning you would have these words bear is to change what Jesus says into what you say He really meant: "For some shall be salted with fire." That obviously just isn't what He said. (I think I'll choose Jesus for mine.)

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 04-24-2010 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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That wasn't the premise of the OP BHFT, the premise what you need to do to escape Hell.

That is believe in Christ.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:41 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,440 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That wasn't the premise of the OP BHFT, the premise what you need to do to escape Hell.

That is believe in Christ.
If you'll read my second post, you'll see that I told him the OP was confusing and asked him to clarify, but he didn't do that.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,299,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Mark 9:33-50 (KJV)...
[33] And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? [34] But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest. [35] And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all. [36] And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, [37] Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. [39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. [40] For he that is not against us is on our part. [41] For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. [42] And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. [43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [49] For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [50] Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another. (Mar 9:1-50 KJV)

That you think "hell fire" is for ungodly unbelievers (those for whom Christ came, sought and died,) yourself being somehow exempt, has betrayed your attempted exigesis. Clearly, "...he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them..." (Mk 9:35) is the context of vs.43-50. His continuing words also are marked as words to disciples: "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another." (vs.50)
Are you attempting to produce a text trying to show that souls are saved post mortem?

Matthew Henry:
The pain of mortifying the flesh now is no more to be compared with the punishment for not mortifying it, than salting with burning. And since he had said, that the fire of hell shall not be quenched, but it might be objected, that the fuel will not last always, he here intimates, that by the power of God it shall be made to last always; for those that are cast into hell, will find the fire to have not only the corroding quality of salt, but its preserving quality; whence it is used to signify that which is lasting: a covenant of salt is a perpetual covenant, and Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt, made her a remaining monument of divine vengeance. Now since this will certainly be the doom of those that do not crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts, let us, knowing this terror of the Lord, be persuaded to do it.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 846,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Are you attempting to produce a text trying to show that souls are saved post mortem?
In answer to the assertion it was not spoken to unbelievers I was pointing out the context of Jesus' speech, to whom He was speaking at the time He spoke the words, "...every one shall be salted with fire..." (Mk 9:49)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Matthew Henry:
The pain of mortifying the flesh now is no more to be compared with the punishment for not mortifying it, than salting with burning. And since he had said, that the fire of hell shall not be quenched, but it might be objected, that the fuel will not last always, he here intimates, that by the power of God it shall be made to last always; for those that are cast into hell, will find the fire to have not only the corroding quality of salt, but its preserving quality; whence it is used to signify that which is lasting: a covenant of salt is a perpetual covenant, and Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt, made her a remaining monument of divine vengeance. Now since this will certainly be the doom of those that do not crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts, let us, knowing this terror of the Lord, be persuaded to do it.
If you read a lot, Matthew Henry's Commentary is to be commended for your edification. It is devotional and helps organize thoughts relevant to passages of Scripture. There is very little examination of the original language and it is in some respect a child of its time. There is increased revelation, particularly concerning "The Eclessia" and God's kingdom in the more than three centuries since its publication. Many are immature and sectarian, supposing only those who agree punctiliously with themselves are within the sheepfold. We are not required to agree in everything another brother says to be blessed by him. Our humanity is like a popsicle stick and the anointing like the confection on it. You have to accept the stick to get the popsicle; but, you don't eat the stick.

"...with all humility and meekness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace..." (Ep 3:2-3, CLT) "...unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ..." (vs.13)

What does concern me is whether or not Scripture actually uses the words you use to express something. What is or is not written is still my standard for faith and practice.

"Yet in vain are they revering Me, teaching for teachings the directions of men." (Mk 7:7, CLT)

"The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Co 3:20, CLT)

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 04-24-2010 at 10:21 PM..
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,580,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That wasn't the premise of the OP BHFT, the premise what you need to do to escape Hell.
Actually, the quote is about NOT escaping the Gahenna judgment. Surely you know this?
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:49 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,845,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
That wasn't the premise of the OP BHFT, the premise what you need to do to escape Hell.

That is believe in Christ.
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Old 04-25-2010, 06:02 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
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twin.spin, did you ever consider that the English word "hell" and its lurid picture it conjures is not applicable to the actual Greek word such as Gehenna?
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Old 04-25-2010, 06:17 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Jesus says:
"I tell you the truth"...not "some of the truth". The "requirement" is to believe the truth. When you say not so...you're ultimatly calling Jesus a liar.

For example: Jesus says...
Mark 10:15
I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."


Those against Jesus speaking the truth say:
No.....not never.
"All means all"
the kingdom isn't heaven
that isn't eternal
Those against Jesus speaking the truth of:
"God WILL save all mankind" (1 Tim.2:4-6) say "God WILL NOT save all mankind"

So, since the RISEN Jesus told Paul all mankind will be saved, in what sense did Jesus say some will under no circumstances be entering the kingdom of God what was to come for 1000 years?


Quote:
other verses:
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
"eternal life" should be "age-abiding life" or "eonian life" which is the life pertaining to the coming eons. Those not believing will be condemned to not be able to live for those coming eons.

Quote:
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
That kingdom being the one the prophets foretold that God would be setting up in Israel. They won't be entering into the dispensing of God's laws (i.e. His kingdom).



Quote:
John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
I tell you the truth, he who believes has eonian life or age-abiding life.

Quote:
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."
When? They surely did see death. So when is this "never see death" to take place? It takes place after the resurrection. So, not only do they get eonian life or the life pertaining to the future eons but they get immortality too even though the eons will end.

Quote:
John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (Jesus calling himself God)
So are you saying your gospel is you have to believe Jesus is God or you will go to your idea of hell?
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