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Old 04-29-2010, 01:25 AM
 
701 posts, read 658,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is those whose oppose the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture who make an issue out of the rapture being a 'quiet secretive event.' The rapture is not the Second Advent.

Christ returns for the church at the rapture as described in 1 Cor. 15:51-52; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thess. 1:10 and 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:14;Titus 2:13; Rev. 22:20.

In a separate event, Christ returns to the earth to fulfill the prophecies with regard to Israel's national regathering as recorded in 2 Sam. 7:8-17; Zech. 12:8; Luke 1:31-33; 1 Cor. 15:24. The actual return is recorded in Revelation 19:11-16.

As already shown, the raptured church is in Heaven in Revelation 19:7-8 prior to Christ's return to the earth.
You do realize that Revelation is not chronological right? What about Revelation 19:7-8 tells you that it is not referencing a time after Christ's 2nd Coming? How can literal Israel still be considered "God's people" in light of 1 John 2:21-23?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Your question regarding 2 Thess. 2:3-4 is covered in detail in the link 'The Rapture of the Church' starting about paragraph 15 or 16.

Before the antichrist is revealed, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit must be lifted. When the church is raptured, although the Holy Spirit will not be taken away, His restraining influence will be taken out of the way.
Who is the only other person, in all of scripture, referred to as the "son of perdition"? Do you feel that the temple spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 is a place that God feels is Holy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The links that I post are for the edification of those who will go into them and study them. Whether you personally choose to view them or not is your own affair. I'm not about to waste my time going to some link that you think refutes the reality of the pre-Tribulational rapture. I already know what the post-tribbers and mid-tribbers think. I do recommend however that you go into my links. But as I say, that is your affair.
Fair enough.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
2,219 posts, read 4,841,655 times
Reputation: 2087
Default There is a bottom line to all of this

the covenant is given to Israel and Israel ALONE. NOT some church. If you are either native born OR you are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel, you ARE a part of the covenant indeed. But the Ch-rch has it all wrong. They think they have replaced Israel. It was NEVER stated and it NEVER will be so. The Messiah is coming back for Israel (all 12 tribes Yahudah and the other 11) make NO mistake about it. Get on the Hebrew (crossed over) train or be misled....it's YOUR choice. Leave your Greco-Roman thinking (stinkin thinkin) behind and get with the REAL plan.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,237,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcisive View Post
the covenant is given to Israel and Israel ALONE. NOT some church. If you are either native born OR you are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel, you ARE a part of the covenant indeed. But the Ch-rch has it all wrong. They think they have replaced Israel. It was NEVER stated and it NEVER will be so. The Messiah is coming back for Israel (all 12 tribes Yahudah and the other 11) make NO mistake about it. Get on the Hebrew (crossed over) train or be misled....it's YOUR choice. Leave your Greco-Roman thinking (stinkin thinkin) behind and get with the REAL plan.
DCISIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...HEY BROTHER!.....and I say, "AMEN!!!!!!!! to the above!"

Think of you often!

Blessings,
Your sister in Christ Jesus!
Verna.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:36 AM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,036,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcisive View Post
the covenant is given to Israel and Israel ALONE. NOT some church. If you are either native born OR you are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel, you ARE a part of the covenant indeed. But the Ch-rch has it all wrong. They think they have replaced Israel. It was NEVER stated and it NEVER will be so. The Messiah is coming back for Israel (all 12 tribes Yahudah and the other 11) make NO mistake about it. Get on the Hebrew (crossed over) train or be misled....it's YOUR choice. Leave your Greco-Roman thinking (stinkin thinkin) behind and get with the REAL plan.
Hi dcisive,

You mean like this:

Isaiah 65
“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.

Acts 28
25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our[b] fathers, 26 saying,



‘ Go to this people and say:

“ Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’[c]

28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.[d]

Matthew 8
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.



That says it all. Israel is where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
2,219 posts, read 4,841,655 times
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Ahh yes, indeed, Israel is for those that believe and partake in the promises given to Avraham, Yitzak and Ya'acov. As well as those things prescribed by YHVH as they did in their day for the blessings.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:33 PM
 
118 posts, read 147,738 times
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Hi Dcisive,

Quote:
he covenant is given to Israel and Israel ALONE. NOT some church. If you are either native born OR you are engrafted into the commonwealth of Israel, you ARE a part of the covenant indeed.
If the Covenant was given to ethnic Israel alone then logically how could gentiles be part of it when they have no blood lineage to Abraham? If gentiles share in the same blessings then they are Israel, plain and simple. If it was exclusive to ethnic Israel only we could not be in it and therefore 2 New Covenants. One with ethnic Israel the other with gentiles.

Quote:
But the Ch-rch has it all wrong. They think they have replaced Israel. It was NEVER stated and it NEVER will be so. The Messiah is coming back for Israel (all 12 tribes Yahudah and the other 11) make NO mistake about it. Get on the Hebrew (crossed over) train or be misled....it's YOUR choice. Leave your Greco-Roman thinking (stinkin thinkin) behind and get with the REAL plan.
The problem with your premise is that the Church did not replace anybody. The Church began with the disciples all Jews and then Paul became saved and preached to the gentiles. The failure of your premise is that

The Church began with believing Jews first.

The believing Jews of the 1st century were the remnant of Israel spoken of by God. Gentiles were then added to the Church as well. Scripture was clear that "There is no Jew or Gentile" in Christ.

If there is no Jew or Gentile in God's eyes but only those of faith(Israel) and those of unbelief(non-believer's) how can we still state that a Jew or Gentile means anything in the eyes of God?

The idea of replacement theology is not correct but even your view disregards the believing Jews of the 1st Century who were the Church. Peter the disciple was to be the head of the Church. Peter was a Jew and he believed the Gospel and died for it.

To state that ethnic Israel is separate from the Church is also Replacement Theology because it removes the promises given in Christ away from any Jew until an endtime event while Jews today are sharing in those promises as they come to Christ.

Inadvertantly stating that ethnic Israel has a plan that is only in effect for only one generation is replacement theology when you are taking away the plan that is available now and has been for 2000+ years to ethnic Israel.

Why take the promises away that are in effect now?
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:47 PM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,036,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
Hi Dcisive,



If the Covenant was given to ethnic Israel alone then logically how could gentiles be part of it when they have no blood lineage to Abraham? If gentiles share in the same blessings then they are Israel, plain and simple. If it was exclusive to ethnic Israel only we could not be in it and therefore 2 New Covenants. One with ethnic Israel the other with gentiles.



The problem with your premise is that the Church did not replace anybody. The Church began with the disciples all Jews and then Paul became saved and preached to the gentiles. The failure of your premise is that

The Church began with believing Jews first.

The believing Jews of the 1st century were the remnant of Israel spoken of by God. Gentiles were then added to the Church as well. Scripture was clear that "There is no Jew or Gentile" in Christ.

If there is no Jew or Gentile in God's eyes but only those of faith(Israel) and those of unbelief(non-believer's) how can we still state that a Jew or Gentile means anything in the eyes of God?

The idea of replacement theology is not correct but even your view disregards the believing Jews of the 1st Century who were the Church. Peter the disciple was to be the head of the Church. Peter was a Jew and he believed the Gospel and died for it.

To state that ethnic Israel is separate from the Church is also Replacement Theology because it removes the promises given in Christ away from any Jew until an endtime event while Jews today are sharing in those promises as they come to Christ.

Inadvertantly stating that ethnic Israel has a plan that is only in effect for only one generation is replacement theology when you are taking away the plan that is available now and has been for 2000+ years to ethnic Israel.

Why take the promises away that are in effect now?

Hi Romulus0,

Good point. There were no Gentile Christians at this point.

Acts 9
31 Then the churches[d] throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
2,219 posts, read 4,841,655 times
Reputation: 2087
Oy vey. Come on people get a clue. It is about Israel. If you are a gentile you are engrafted into Israel and become one with the promise. The concept of no Jew nor Gentile is fine, because you become ISRAEL.......its not that hard..........sheesh
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:41 PM
 
17,749 posts, read 15,036,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcisive View Post
Oy vey. Come on people get a clue. It is about Israel. If you are a gentile you are engrafted into Israel and become one with the promise. The concept of no Jew nor Gentile is fine, because you become ISRAEL.......its not that hard..........sheesh
Greetings dcisive,

Yes fine except Israel is not this:




Its not even a Hebrew symbol. Curious God would raise a pagan flag on his creation.
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:59 PM
 
118 posts, read 147,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcisive View Post
Oy vey. Come on people get a clue. It is about Israel. If you are a gentile you are engrafted into Israel and become one with the promise. The concept of no Jew nor Gentile is fine, because you become ISRAEL.......its not that hard..........sheesh
Then we are in agreement, believing Jews are Israel and believing gentiles are Israel. Why are we on different pages? I think it is in regard to ethnic Israel today who are unbelievers and who have been (most) for the past 2000 years.

I think our disagreement is where the jews today have some sort of prophetic significance. I think you believe that the Old Covenant is somehow still in effect since you believe the promises have not been fulfilled and that somehow the Old Covenant was unconditional and therefore ethnic Israel today is still under that promise and since they are now in a land their own they will somehow in the future reign as a saved people separate from the Church.

Am I correct in stating this?
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