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Old 04-30-2010, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
BY SAYING YES!! WE GOT TO SAY YES to HIS will and HIS ways....amen?

I am not sure what you are saying ... If you are asking me if i agree his will and ways are higher and better than our way, i agree ...

However i do not believe anyone can know or live Gods "will" or "way" in this life perfectly ... That is why we had to have Christ die for us. To become our sin and die for us ...

If it were up to us to live without sin in this world, the sacrifice of Christ would mean nothing.

Those who believe that mankind must be justified by the law are fallen from grace, and make the work of Christ on the cross to be in vain.

I believe that in the eyes of God, believers do not sin, because we are covered by the blood of Christ. That is to say, it is no longer the believer that sins, but it is the sin that is in the flesh of the believer that sins(Rom 7).

That is why Paul said that all things are now lawful unto us, though all things are not expedient(1Cr 6:12,1Cr 10:23) ... Because of Christ we have been released from the law of sin ...

It is the flesh and its carnal nature that must be destroyed ... The minds of believers are already being conformed to the mind of Christ, so that we now strive between two masters ... The law for sin in the flesh and the law of God in our minds. We love one and hate the other, so that we find ourselves often at an impasse, because the things we love and would do, we do not do them, while the things we hate, those things we do(Rom 7). Yet it is no longer we that do them, it is the sin that is in our flesh.

So who will deliver us for this body of death? That is why we give thanks to God for the lord Christ. Now the spirit of God who raised up Christ is now dwelling in us, and the same spirit will also give life to our mortal bodies(Rom 7 & 8) ...

But when will the spirit give life to our mortal bodies? At the resurrection of the dead.

As it is, even now we who believe groan within ourselves, eagerly awaiting the adoption of our bodies(Rom 8:23). We through the spirit await the hope of righteousness by faith(Gal 5:5). Though in Christ through faith we are counted as righteous by God even now, and by the same faith we await the hope of righteousness in ourselves by the glorification of our mortal bodies of death (When we shall put off corruption, and put on incorruption and immortality), we are yet corruptible and our flesh is still mortal and dying(1Cr 15:42-54).

We have been predestined and therefore called, and all who are called are now justified in Christ, and we are yet anticipating to be glorified(Rom 8).

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 04-30-2010 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:00 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Some clarifying questions.....

Question #1. Who are the "those of you" of which you are speaking? The ones that teach "true Christians never sin?

Question #2. Have you ever heard me say: That "real Christians" never sin?


Question #3
. What would that make ME, ME BETSEY...if I told you that I never sinned? Hence; the topic?



I have some more, but as not to overwhelm you, let's start here!

You are siding with scgraham in this debate are you not? Isnt that what scgraham has been saying thoughout the thread?

Can one be holy and sin at the same time?

If you do not mean to associate yourself to scgrahams argument, which has been throughout this thread that we must be holy(free of sin, i.e not sinners) in order to be saved, then perhaps you should not defend his argument.

Again, if you do not agree with scgraham that if you sin you are not truly saved, then my post above should not have been to you.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:33 PM
 
5,417 posts, read 4,663,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So then tell me ... If those of you who teach that "true Christians" never sin, who is it that the pharisee represents in the parable?

Why is the publican who is a sinner justified and the pharisee who claims not to sin not justified?

How do you understand the parable? What do you think Jesus meant in its telling?
You are twisting scriptures to do away with holiness and to justify your sins, just like the scribes and pharisees! Jesus reached out to sinners to save them from hell; He was calling them to repentance -- and He gladly received those who would step into His holiness, which is received by grace.

The Pharisees, on the other hand, were hypocrites! They were nothing but doorkeepers!

Matt. 23
[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
[15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
[17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
[18] And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
[19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
[20] Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
[21] And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
[22] And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
[25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
[26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
[27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[28] Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
[30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
[31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
[32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
[33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jesus' own words prove that there is the damnation of hell, and all liars are going there!

Rev.21-8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:43 PM
 
5,417 posts, read 4,663,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Can one be holy and sin at the same time?
No! One cannot willfully sin and be holy. And holiness is God's standard. There may be some things that we are unknowingly doing wrong, which the Holy Spirit will convict us of, so they can be removed from our lives. The wrinkles have to be ironed out by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

Eph.5:26-27 - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

If you commit willful sin, then you're full of blemishes. You can't tell lies, even if they're so called little white lies, and be holy. God said all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

Eph.5
[8] For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )
[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
[11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
[12] For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Last edited by scgraham; 04-30-2010 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:13 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Their beliefs? Since YOU may have a hard time deciphering who the liar is, let me help (here's a huge clue): IT'S THE ONE THAT DOESN'T LINE UP WITH THE WORDS OF GOD. ALL OF IT!! Not some of it.......ALL OF IT! Half truths ARE, and will always be......NON-TRUTHS!

And believe God, not me, not them, not you, he, nor she......THE TRUTH NEEDS NO HELP FROM any of us! THE TRUTH HAS NO PROBLEM STANDING ON IT'S OWN! Dissension my foot! That's not my job!, He does the separating, all by Himself!
There is NO WAY YOU can know what is and is not truth. You can only BELIEVE what you think is truth. That is the same for everyone else. What is WRITTEN must be READ and INTERPRETED. Unless you believe you learned to read better than everyone else and learned to interpret what you read better than everyone else . . . you do NOT KNOW what is truth . . . ONLY what YOU BELIEVE is truth. If God were to come tomorrow and tell you that you were wrong . . . would that mean that you were a LIAR all this time for BELIEVING what you do? Of course NOT . . . you BELIEVE you know the truth so you are NOT lying. EVERYONE ELSE is doing the same, Betsey. So get off the superior horse you are riding and stop pretending you have any better access to the truth than any of us. THAT causes dissension and division among believers and THAT is sinful.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,687,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is NO WAY YOU can know what is and is not truth. You can only BELIEVE what you think is truth. That is the same for everyone else. What is WRITTEN must be READ and INTERPRETED. Unless you believe you learned to read better than everyone else and learned to interpret what you read better than everyone else . . . you do NOT KNOW what is truth . . . ONLY what YOU BELIEVE is truth. If God were to come tomorrow and tell you that you were wrong . . . would that mean that you were a LIAR all this time for BELIEVING what you do? Of course NOT . . . you BELIEVE you know the truth so you are NOT lying. EVERYONE ELSE is doing the same, Betsey. So get off the superior horse you are riding and stop pretending you have any better access to the truth than any of us. THAT causes dissension and division among believers and THAT is sinful.
She isn't causing dissension and division among believers. Those who do not know the truth are offended by what she says.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
She isn't causing dissension and division among believers. Those who do not know the truth are offended by what she says.
Believers in general or those who believe what Betsey believes?

Say your husband lied to you. And you believed it. Does that make you an accessory to the lie and thus a liar as well?

Belief (even in an untruth) cannot be defined as a lie.

Lying is about intending to deceive someone. (Lie | Define Lie at Dictionary.com)
If you are deceived you can't be lying because you are telling the truth as you know it.

Therefore by calling another person a liar because they express what they think is the truth (whether they are deceived or not) is bearing false witness against another.

Proverbs 12:18 There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, But the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Calling someone who gives their honest testimony of their beliefs a liar is an injustice IMO and inherently dissentious.

I believe this is what Mystic is saying.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
She isn't causing dissension and division among believers. Those who do not know the truth are offended by what she says.
You clearly didn't read anything I wrote . . . just the same old arrogant BELIEF that you know what the truth is and everyone else is misguided or lying. Sick, sick, sick ignorant rant.
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:29 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,417,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is NO WAY YOU can know what is and is not truth. You can only BELIEVE what you think is truth. That is the same for everyone else. What is WRITTEN must be READ and INTERPRETED. Unless you believe you learned to read better than everyone else and learned to interpret what you read better than everyone else . . . you do NOT KNOW what is truth . . . ONLY what YOU BELIEVE is truth. If God were to come tomorrow and tell you that you were wrong . . . would that mean that you were a LIAR all this time for BELIEVING what you do? Of course NOT . . . you BELIEVE you know the truth so you are NOT lying. EVERYONE ELSE is doing the same, Betsey. So get off the superior horse you are riding and stop pretending you have any better access to the truth than any of us. THAT causes dissension and division among believers and THAT is sinful.
I agree...but don't be harsh on Betsy...she's just proclaiming what she believes to be true...
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:13 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
I agree...but don't be harsh on Betsy...she's just proclaiming what she believes to be true...
I know and agree, Ans . . . I just wish she would accord the rest of us the same love and courtesy by JUST focusing on getting people to love and accept Jesus . . . without all the negative crap she and the others insist on corrupting the message with. Only the primitive and ignorant need to be frightened into action . . . and they can never be frightened into love. Love and fear are completely incompatible. It is so ludicrous and counterproductive.
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