Was there salvation before Jesus came? (Eden, crucifixion, incarnation, Jehovah's Witnesses)

[ahigherway]

Romans 10:8
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

Deuteronomy 30:14
"But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

Sounds to me like salvation has ALWAYS been in the heart of man!

Any thoughts?

Blessings to all,
brian

[Glassman96]

I have to agree with you on that. Before Jesus came there were plenty of people that were in right standing with God. I believe that until Jesus completed the new covenant between God and man, the ransom for our souls could not be paid for. Isaiah 51: 11. The new covenant is for all mankind. Everyone has a chance to choose. Many will and many won't.

[ans57]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

Romans 10:8
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

Deuteronomy 30:14
"But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

Sounds to me like salvation has ALWAYS been in the heart of man!

Any thoughts?

Blessings to all,
brian

Effected by the cross...

Welcome to the "battle of wits" forum...

[hljc]

Yes there was salvation before Jesus but the hope of Jesus to come sealed the covenant........ In Genesis 17:19..... ``and God said Sarah your wife shall bear you a son indeed and you shall call his name Isaac and I will established my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him....The Blessing of Isaac saved thousands of people for about two Thousand years before Jesus came and died and rose from the dead and took the Honor that Adam had lost and established a New Covenant.....

[WildCardSteve]

Is God really that quick to sentence people to an eternity of torment?

My concept is similar to that of Jehovah's Witnesses...evil people simply are denied imortality.

[Glassman96]

Originally Posted by WildCardSteve

Is God really that quick to sentence people to an eternity of torment?

My concept is similar to that of Jehovah's Witnesses...evil people simply are denied imortality.

Actually, people condemn themselves. Jesus clearly teaches that we need to repent. Everyone has a chance to choose life or death, but many don't take it seriously until it's too late. Jesus can lead us back to God, but many won't follow Him, even the ones that go to church on a regular basis and claim to be Christians. Jesus mentions this in the parable of the sower.

[Romulus0]

In regards to the original posters question we have to deal with Christ's own words:

John 3

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

Jesus spoke these words to Nicodemus after explaining that a man must be born again to be saved. Man could not have been born again before Christ because the atonement for sin was not completed yet and nothing sinful can be in the presence of God. Man always had salvation on their hearts but it was not completed. Even Abraham was not saved but looked forward to Christ's day when He would complete the atonement.

The Old Covenant was not enough to bring man back into the presence of God because the perfect sacrifice could never be made simply by the blood of animals or even man. It took God Himself in Christ to accomplish this. The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to be a shadow of the perfect and final New Covenant in Christ.

Are those before Christ lost? Of course not. Through Christ those that received Him when He descended to the realm of the dead (hades) after the crucifixion were saved such as the Old Testament Saints like Abraham and Moses. These were known as the "dead in Christ" those that were faithful in ages past that looked forward to the day Christ would be revealed. Those before Christ and those after Christ whose faith was in Him are saved, and worthy to be in the presence of God since sin has been atoned for.

The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to bring in the New Covenant in Christ and faith in His blood shed on the cross accomplishes this. No one is lost whether before Christ or after since all have the opportunity to believe by faith in Christ's atoning work on calvary. Salvation came only through Christ, not before.

God Bless!

[ans57]

Originally Posted by Romulus0

In regards to the original posters question we have to deal with Christ's own words:

John 3

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

Jesus spoke these words to Nicodemus after explaining that a man must be born again to be saved. Man could not have been born again before Christ because the atonement for sin was not completed yet and nothing sinful can be in the presence of God. Man always had salvation on their hearts but it was not completed. Even Abraham was not saved but looked forward to Christ's day when He would complete the atonement.

The Old Covenant was not enough to bring man back into the presence of God because the perfect sacrifice could never be made simply by the blood of animals or even man. It took God Himself in Christ to accomplish this. The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to be a shadow of the perfect and final New Covenant in Christ.

Are those before Christ lost? Of course not. Through Christ those that received Him when He descended to the realm of the dead (hades) after the crucifixion were saved such as the Old Testament Saints like Abraham and Moses. These were known as the "dead in Christ" those that were faithful in ages past that looked forward to the day Christ would be revealed. Those before Christ and those after Christ whose faith was in Him are saved, and worthy to be in the presence of God since sin has been atoned for.

The very purpose of the Old Covenant was to bring in the New Covenant in Christ and faith in His blood shed on the cross accomplishes this. No one is lost whether before Christ or after since all have the opportunity to believe by faith in Christ's atoning work on calvary. Salvation came only through Christ, not before.

God Bless!

[HalfNelson]

Yes there was, from the animal slain at the gates of Eden to clothe A/E all the way up to sacrifices that took place just prior to Calvary, they were all part of the sacrificial system that pointed to Calvary. Did Christ still need to come and die on Calvary, to claim the right to save them? Yes, or we would all have been lost. Calvary made salvation AVAILABLE to all, however it is not given to all, for sin has to be repented of in order to be covered by the blood of the cross.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

Romans 10:8
"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach"

Deuteronomy 30:14
"But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

Sounds to me like salvation has ALWAYS been in the heart of man!

Any thoughts?

Blessings to all,
brian

The Son of Man in heaven was -from the beginning- the wisdom hid in God for our salvation, to be revealed in His pre-ordained time, in whose name the redeemed are saved. Enoch wrote of Salvation in the name of the Son of Man who was God, with God, hidden in heaven, and who was to come, and he wrote of Him before the flood.

The salvation in the name of the Son of Man in Enoch, the prophet, seventh from Adam, who saw Him in secret, in heaven:

2And at that hour that Son of Man was named
In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days. 3Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
4He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.
6And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.


1 Corinthians 2:7 in the literal Greek is taken from Enoch's reveltion of Him who was ordained before the world for our glory.

1 Corinthians 2:7 But [we] speak wisdom, God in mystery, hidden which God ordained before [the] world unto our glory:

From before we were created, the day of Atonement was ordained to come in its season.
Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
The promise was given to Adam and all his seed in his loins [the entire race was counted as seed in the firstborn] at the time of the fall, when in grace he was sent out of the Garden, so as to save him [and his seed] from being damned for eternity by eating of the tree of Life and living forever in the defiled, unclean vessel of his flesh.
He was given a covering to wear, to cover the shame of the loss of the glory of a son of God which he was made and anointed with, until the change comes.
The adoption body of regeneration was promised to our head of the race at the time he was cast out of the Garden, as recorded in Genesis 3.

When the Person of God the Word [who is the Son of Man in heaven] donned the garments of second Man creation prepared in the womb of the virgin [which body of human flesh was made for His garmenting in, so as to be our legal Kinsman Redeemer Isaaiah 59], that day of His incarnation was the day from which all creation is blessed, both "backwards and forwards"; and the day of His being "our God bound to the altar of sacrifice", was the Day YHWH had made from the beginning of creation, in which we rejoice and be glad in, from that date, says the Word.
Abraham saw that day and rejoiced, in the rehearsal of the oracle of it, which he performed as a living prophet at the time of the sacrifice of Isaac.
Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

He was always to come, and the message has been in every generation of Adam's seed from the beginning of creation.

Abraham was redeemed, says the Word of God, and so has every son of Adam been, who has sought the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, which light is Christ, and which Light leads those who seek Him to the knowledge of salvation.

Isa 29:22
Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
David knew the LORD, and was redeemed.Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed [be] my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Job knew His Redeemer lived and would raise his dead body and that his own eyes would see Him on the earth in the last days.


Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth: Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.


Psa 118:14 The LORD [is] my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Psa 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, [and] I will praise the LORD: This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. Psa 118:22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. Psa 118:24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. Psa 118:26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. Psa 118:27 God [is] the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, [even] unto the horns of the altar. Psa 118:28 Thou [art] my God, and I will praise thee: [thou art] my God, I will exalt thee.

Hag 2:15 And now, I pray you, consider from this day and upward, from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD:Hag 2:18 Consider now from this day [the incarnation on the eve before what later becamethe first day of Hannukuh] and upward [backwards and forwards], from the four and twentieth day of the ninth [month, even] from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider [it].