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Old 11-24-2007, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 316,718 times
Reputation: 466

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
God is also a God of wrath, judgment, and justice. Our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. Would you agree that God many times came in judgment in the OT against those who professed to love Him and honor Him? We are not an all-knowing, all-powerful, completely holy and righteous being that we can sit in judgment of God's decisions.
Yeah, this is always the same old excuse. I see Christians who go on and on about how loving God is but give them the uni argument and they instantly switch over to "Yeah, but" and then God is also wrathful, hateful, ect...

Why is it that God is not to take responsiblity for His imperfect creation?

God's ways are not ours, yadda yadda...yet I was made in His image, and I would never concieve of doing to my children what His followers claim about Him.

It's like scrambling to find excuses for an inexcusable tirant who wants everyone to love Him despite His cruelties. Just sad.

And that's not the God of all creation that I serve.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:03 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,159,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
Yeah, this is always the same old excuse. I see Christians who go on and on about how loving God is but give them the uni argument and they instantly switch over to "Yeah, but" and then God is also wrathful, hateful, ect...

Why is it that God is not to take responsiblity for His imperfect creation?

God's ways are not ours, yadda yadda...yet I was made in His image, and I would never concieve of doing to my children what His followers claim about Him.

It's like scrambling to find excuses for an inexcusable tirant who wants everyone to love Him despite His cruelties. Just sad.

And that's not the God of all creation that I serve.
If you are not willing to take God as He is, as He has declared Himself to be in His Word, then you are not serving the God of all creation. We do not make God what we want Him to be; we worship God as He has revealed Himself to us!

Read Romans 9.

Preterist
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:13 PM
 
Location: NC
11,516 posts, read 8,983,665 times
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Hi Preterist, I think that it may be best to do a separate thread in response to your last post to me although, so as not to take away from the original QP. But I would like to hear your response to this earlier post as it relates your belief that Jesus died for only a select few. Thanks and God bless.



Quote:
For whom did Jesus die? Jesus said--
Quote:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the SHEEP. . . . I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. . . . My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give THEM eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:11ff).
Quote:
Jesus died for His sheep only--those who were given to Him by the Father. No one can take them from Him--ever!

Preterist, Jesus gave Himself for His sheep and for all men. All men are really His sheep because all are lost and in need of a Savior. He is calling out some of His sheep now, but God has given Jesus all things (John 13:3) and all belong to Him. Please prayerfully consider Colossians 1:15-20, 1 Timothy 4:10, and 1 Timothy 2:1-7, 1 John 2:2 and their contexts. God bless.



Colossians
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.


1 Timothy 4:10
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.


1 Timothy 2: 1-7
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who *desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 John 2:2
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the those of the whole world..."

God bless.


Literally:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the SHEEP. . . . I lay down my life FOR THE SHEEP. . . . My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give THEM eternal (aionios-age lasting, of or relating to the age, age enduring) life, and they shall NEVER perish; (shall not be perishing for or unto the age or eon) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:11ff).
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit, MI
3,490 posts, read 316,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
If you are not willing to take God as He is, as He has declared Himself to be in His Word, then you are not serving the God of all creation. We do not make God what we want Him to be; we worship God as He has revealed Himself to us!

Read Romans 9.

Preterist
I am willing to take God as He is...just not how many of His followers proclaim Him to be.

God has declared in His word that He has declaired the end from the beginning, doing all to His pleasure. If losing the vast majority of mankind to be confirmed to sin and torment for eternity is His pleasure...

And no "Yeah buts". Either God is a capable God or He is not. His Word also says (IN CONTEXT, BEFORE ANYONE STARTS) that He will save all of mankind. Either we balance those scriptures with those that speak of hell, or the Bible is rife with contradictions and we might as well toss it.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:01 PM
 
Location: southern california
49,803 posts, read 46,924,638 times
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well the prodigical son walked, but then he suffered a lot and then came back.
he was always saved but had to go thru some nasty to see it for himself.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,958 posts, read 3,450,365 times
Reputation: 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
I am willing to take God as He is...just not how many of His followers proclaim Him to be.

God has declared in His word that He has declaired the end from the beginning, doing all to His pleasure. If losing the vast majority of mankind to be confirmed to sin and torment for eternity is His pleasure...

And no "Yeah buts". Either God is a capable God or He is not. His Word also says (IN CONTEXT, BEFORE ANYONE STARTS) that He will save all of mankind. Either we balance those scriptures with those that speak of hell, or the Bible is rife with contradictions and we might as well toss it.
On the contrary the Bible is full of the fact that salvation is precious and is not something to be tossed around. God desires to save many and the cost was extremely high that Jesus paid. Moreover, the Bible speaks in a "few" places about the "so-called" loss of salvation. Those that refuse to see the clear desire of God for His elect to be saved and kept are simply unwilling to let God do what He wants. It's the puerile thinking of "that can't be fair!"

I trust God completely. "For which cause I suffer also these things: yet I am not ashamed; for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2 Timothy 1:12)
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Old 11-28-2007, 02:36 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 2,159,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffncandace View Post
I am willing to take God as He is...just not how many of His followers proclaim Him to be.

God has declared in His word that He has declaired the end from the beginning, doing all to His pleasure. If losing the vast majority of mankind to be confirmed to sin and torment for eternity is His pleasure...

And no "Yeah buts". Either God is a capable God or He is not. His Word also says (IN CONTEXT, BEFORE ANYONE STARTS) that He will save all of mankind. Either we balance those scriptures with those that speak of hell, or the Bible is rife with contradictions and we might as well toss it.
What Scriptures saying He will save all mankind?

Preterist
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,289 posts, read 2,038,470 times
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We all know that God desires for all of mankind to be saved but He also knows that many will turn from Him. If all mankind were saved and none were lost, what need would there be for a final judgment? Why then would the book of Revelation have to have been written?

Ezekiel 33:11 states: "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?"

Matthew 13:41-43 states: "I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the godly will shine like the sun in their Father's Kingdom. Anyone who is willing to hear should listen and understand!"

God cannot and will not tolerate wickedness and evil in His kingdom because He is holy. We didn't make the rules, He did.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:33 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,495,185 times
Reputation: 1540
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Quote:
I, the Son of Man
On the risk of going off thread: I find this an interesting turn of phrase.
Clearly the early Christians (who didn't consider themselves Christians but part of Judaism) called Jesus the Son of Man and the Christians refer to Christ as the Son of God. It seems clear (at least to me) that Jesus is the Son of Man and Christ the Son of God, but given his divine heritage (the immaculate conception of his mother) wouldn't it not be more accurate to call Jesus the Son of God?
And what is the difference?
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
1,289 posts, read 2,038,470 times
Reputation: 647
Jesus was both God and Man at the same time. He was (Son of) God by virtue of His virgin birth; He was God by virtue of His sinless life; He was God by virtue of the fact that His life testified of His divinity and that He Himself claimed His divinity; He was God by virtue of the miracles He performed; He was God by His ability to forgive sin and finally that He accepted and acknowledged the worship given to Him and continues to accept.

He was Son of Man by virtue of human birth; He was the Son of Man by virtue of His human body and the limitations contained therein; He was the Son of Man by virtue of His human or earthly name that was given to Him and finally by virtue of the fact that He released the glory He held so that He could live as a man. Does that help explain some things?
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