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Old 04-30-2010, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Why can't folks just answer a simple question.....do you think it is just?

Do you think you can obtain salvation other than accepting Christ as your savior?
Do you think that mercy is given to those who don't love God?
Is it just for God to grant salvation to one who hasn't sacrificed?
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:11 PM
 
433 posts, read 515,092 times
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Answer -- the fact is no one was ever "saved". None, never, ever ... then why are people telling people about being "saved"?

That reminds people to use their heads.

(after that, you may cite some Bible verses)
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic235 View Post
Answer -- the fact is no one was ever "saved". None, never, ever ... then why are people telling people about being "saved"?

That reminds people to use their heads.

(after that, you may cite some Bible verses)
Exactly. Everyone is condemned. Everyone.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The Bible tells us that we are buy nature children of wrath. It tells us that there is none righteous and it tells us that God is holy. Would it be justice to say those that who did not hear of Christ are somehow excluded from the righteous judgment of God upon them for their sin? Would that be justice? If that is so, then why did Jesus need to die? Why would it be that they must hear the gospel and come to Christ?
Being that later in the chapter, it says that through faith we are saved, then yes, it makes sense that those who do not have faith are excluded.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Doesn't the bible also say that in order to confess that Christ is Lord one must have the holy spirit? So that if they have the holy spirit aren't they chosen by God? and if they have the holy spirit but have not yet confessed that Christ is Lord aren't they still chosen?
If you have the Spirit, you are part of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The Bible tells us that we are buy nature children of wrath. It tells us that there is none righteous and it tells us that God is holy. Would it be justice to say those that who did not hear of Christ are somehow excluded from the righteous judgment of God upon them for their sin? Would that be justice? If that is so, then why did Jesus need to die? Why would it be that they must hear the gospel and come to Christ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Being that later in the chapter, it says that through faith we are saved, then yes, it makes sense that those who do not have faith are excluded.
If you read it altogether in context, you will see that he was talking to believers about their past when they were living sinfully, and told them they were made alive even when they were dead in transgressions. It says this was because of God's love and that He's rich in mercy, NOT because they were rich in faith or belief. It says we are saved through faith, not because of faith, and both faith and grace and gifts from God. And most importantly, what are we saved from? Sin. Why? So we can do good works. That's what he's explaining here.

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:11 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,380 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Doesn't the bible also say that in order to confess that Christ is Lord one must have the holy spirit? So that if they have the holy spirit aren't they chosen by God? and if they have the holy spirit but have not yet confessed that Christ is Lord aren't they still chosen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Do you have a Scriptural reference for that?
1 Corinthians 12:3:
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2:
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:45 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermister View Post
we all refer to pagans at some point. my question is, how is a pagan saved by gods grace if they are isolated from our missionary region.
will african tribes enter heaven if they believe in their god?
what happened to those who died believing there was a god but never "accepted him"?

i have attended church my whole life and i defend christianity but im still unsure about my salvation. i was baptised twice - presbyterian and baptist -but still unsure. praying seems to be like talking to a wall...every now and then i get shivers listening to a song so i guess that the "spirit" but not really sure how to get god to talk back
I'll start with your doubts about your own salvation. The issue in eternal salvation is this.

Because of Adam's original sin, death-spiritual death-separation from God came upon all mankind. As a result of spiritual death, man also dies physically.

Gen. 2:16 And the Lord commanded the man, saying ''From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it dying you shall die.

In the Greek it says 'dying (spiritually) you shall die (physically). Adam died spiritually immediately when he ate the fruit. That is, he lost his relationship with God. As a result of his spiritual death, Adam died physically much later. He was some 930 years old when he physically died.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Therefore every person is born physically alive but spiritually dead. Man is born already condemned, not because of his own personal sins, but because of Adam's original sin. Your own personal sins were set aside until Jesus Christ came into the world as a member of the human race and paid the penalty for your sins and therefore removing sin as an issue in salvation. Where sin had been a barrier which stood between man and God, the work of Jesus Christ on the Cross removed sin as a barrier and the only issue, I repeat, the ONLY ISSUE in salvation is 'What think you of Christ?'

Repeatedly, the Bible states that salvation is obtained by believing in Jesus Christ. By placing your faith in Christ.

Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

To believe in Christ means that in understanding the issue involved in salvation, that is, that Christ accomplished everything that needed to be done on the Cross in order to provide salvation and that that salvation is offered to all, and given to those who will receive it through faith in Christ; in understandng that, if you will simply trust in Christ to save you, if you simply realize that there is nothing that you can do, and nothing that you can give up in order to contribute to your salvation; if you understand that God simply wants you to WANT to receive His offer of salvation by trusting in the fact that it is there for the asking, then you are saved.

In a person's own words, their own vocabulary they need only to simply express the thought to God the Father, something like this. ''Father, I understand the issue and I am believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.'' In that moment of time, they are saved forever.

You cannot work for your salvation...

Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one should boast.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7) that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You are not saved by being baptized in water. Every New Testament account of someone who had been baptized had already been saved through faith in Christ. Baptism was just a public testimony to a believers faith.


You cannot lose your salvation because of sin in your life, because Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for any sin you can commit. Once saved, you are eternally saved.

Once you believe in Christ for salvation, every sin that you committed in your life prior to salvation is forgiven because it has already been judged on the Cross. Every sin that you commit after salvation is forgiven at the moment you acknowledge the sin to God the Father as per the principle of 1 John 1:9, because it was already judged on the Cross. Sin in the life of the believer simply puts the believer under the control of his old sin nature instead of being under the control of the Holy Spirit--filled with the Spirit as per Eph. 5:18.


Please take the time to go into these links...

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

If you have received the free gift of salvation through faith in Christ you are positionally sanctified--set apart unto Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Acts 26:18 ...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Now, concerning your first question which basically is 'What about those who have never heard the Gospel?'

Simply put, God knew in eternity past everyone who would be interested in knowing more about God once they became aware of the concept of a supreme being--the point of God consciousness. If when a person becomes mentally developed enough to conceive of the existance of a deity, that person desires to know more about the true God, God will see to it that he gets the Gospel so that he can make a decision about Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter how geographically isolated that person may be. God will have made arrangements in eternity past to get the Gospel to him.

Understand that from the very earliest of times, the knowledge about God's existance and the Gospel moved out with man as the population expanded and man spread out across the earth. But in due course of time, many peoples and groups and populations of people had no desire to know the true God and so knowledge of Him became corrupted. But in His omniscience, God has always known who wants to know Him and made provision in the divine decrees which was actually one big decree, to get the Gospel wherever it is needed through missionary activity and other means. God spoke the universe into existance with a word. He has the ability to get the Gospel to those who will respond to it.

The heathen are heathen not because they have never heard, but because they have heard and rejected the truth. It is entirely possible for entire groups of peoples to have no desire to know God. But if even one person in that group (a native in some jungle for example) wants to know the true God, then God absolutely will get the Gospel to him.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:09 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,287,428 times
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Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I don't feel I sacrifice for God by living as sinless as possible. I consider it a blessing to know God and I don't want to do anything to hurt or disappoint Him. When I get to heaven and witness people who didn't "live this way" worshipping God, I won't be mad and think that's unjust, I'll be rejoicing!
We weren't talking about you or myself, who has it so easy behind our computers in anonymity. I'm talking about the Sudanese Christian whose entire life was turned upside down when the Muslims killed his family and friends, let alone his 2 year old daughter and 6 month old son....his only heir. Or how about the Palestinian Christian, who lost his wife, grandmother and enitre life worth and property to the continuous air strikes. Or better yet, the North Korean Christian, who can't even mutter a word about his faith or else his entire bloodline would be wiped out. This is the church. When someone is hurt, we hurt. His "reward" is justified.

Sound good to you?....Please don't preach to me about sacrifice. You can sit there and talk the talk, but can you really walk the walk and say afterward, that friggin guy who spit on Jesus' cross and then gets shot by the police, in that very church, for killing and molesting a 2 year old, don't worry, he will have his place in heaven.......give me a break.

UR shames Jesus Christ.
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Old 05-01-2010, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,110,371 times
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Quote:
Jesus saves them all even if they swing from trees and live like monkeys
Good thing!! I like swinging from trees!!

Besides, there are lots of ways to get into heaven, as we can see from this thread. Babies that die go to heaven, others get to meet Jesus first and then decide-- but we "lucky ones" have to decide here and now, when the preachers are yelling at us..

Obviously sarcastic, but the message is the same. Some have to "make a choice for Christ" here and now; others can decide after death, when they meet Him face-to-face, while little children who are below the "age of accountability" get in free!

I believe, my friend, that we are ALL in, just as we were ALL in Adam. Some just don't know it yet..

Blessings,
Brian
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