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Old 05-03-2010, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post

He elects , seeks and finds , this is what a Savior is .

Do you really believe that a lifeguard would only pull from the perilous sea only those who call, then leave the rest to drown because they did not call ?.
What do the scriptures say about election?
We are VESSELS for the unsaved, whose sins ARE paid for.
You can't drink the wine unless you HAVE the wine in your hand.
You cannot be washed with the blood of Christ unless you ask to be cleansed. You can't eat the bread unless you HAVE the bread.

Quote:
So what you are saying is he elects,drags and carry's some, but not others ?
Yes. That is what the scriptures teach.

Think of it this way.....this universe is the old creation, without Christ. The New Creation, in this universe, and the eternal universe is with Christ. I profess my belief, my old creation dies, and my new creation is raised...this is what 1 Cor 15 teaches about the spiritual/natural raised/sown bodies. The New Creation, is not made with hands (yet is in the old universe, the one we live in, but are NOT OF this WORLD, because it is spiritual), and is eternal.

Old universe - die
New universe - live forever
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:24 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What do the scriptures say about election?
We are VESSELS for the unsaved, whose sins ARE paid for.
You can't drink the wine unless you HAVE the wine in your hand.
You cannot be washed with the blood of Christ unless you ask to be cleansed. You can't eat the bread unless you HAVE the bread.



Yes. That is what the scriptures teach.

Think of it this way.....this universe is the old creation, without Christ. The New Creation, in this universe, and the eternal universe is with Christ. I profess my belief, my old creation dies, and my new creation is raised...this is what 1 Cor 15 teaches about the spiritual/natural raised/sown bodies. The New Creation, is not made with hands (yet is in the old universe, the one we live in, but are NOT OF this WORLD, because it is spiritual), and is eternal.

Old universe - die
New universe - live forever
Well it's child like simple faith to me, the world is lost and needed saving , and Jesus as Savior of the world came to seek and save the lost

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."Luke 19.
I cannot read into this simple portion of scripture that God is a respecter of persons and decided to save some of the lost and others he didn't.

So Sciota all said and done you believe Jesus as Savior of the world is only part Savior because he is willing to leave those who are powerless to rescue themselves from the perilous sea , purely because they didn't call on him?, i have no doubt that the worst of us would be more willing to rescue than the savior you believe in.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-03-2010 at 03:55 PM..
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Old 05-03-2010, 04:13 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,424,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermister View Post
we all refer to pagans at some point. my question is, how is a pagan saved by gods grace if they are isolated from our missionary region.
will african tribes enter heaven if they believe in their god?
what happened to those who died believing there was a god but never "accepted him"?

i have attended church my whole life and i defend christianity but im still unsure about my salvation. i was baptised twice - presbyterian and baptist -but still unsure. praying seems to be like talking to a wall...every now and then i get shivers listening to a song so i guess that the "spirit" but not really sure how to get god to talk back

I'm sorry it appears your thread got terribly side-tracked. Regarding your OP, here are a few points to consider:


1. Salvation is a work of God. Not man. Not missionaries. Not ourselves. If God wants to save the pagans, He will do it.

2. (Eusebius mentioned this) Examine the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Those who were hired first complained when those those hired last got the same payment. We see examples of this behavior in this very thread.

3. Saul's conversion to Paul. Did God need a missionary to convert Saul to Paul, or did He just reveal Himself in a way that Paul now saw the light? Read Acts 9.

4. If it were up to man to maintain his salvation - he would fail every time. Trust in God to finish the work He has started in you. You may go through trial and temptation, but God will not fail.

Hope that helps...
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Old 05-03-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So Sciota all said and done you believe Jesus as Savior of the world is only part Savior because he is willing to leave those who are powerless to rescue themselves from the perilous sea , purely because they didn't call on him?, i have no doubt that the worst of us would be more willing to rescue than the savior you believe in.
Powerless? Willing to leave them so?
Man chose sin pcamps, lest you forget, and man is already condemned.
God could very well have left us all to die, but He didn't. That is mercy.
He chooses to elect those who respond to His grace.

And yes, I believe Christ died for everyone, as HE became SIN, but the scriptures are strict, you must profess your faith, to have eternal life, and BE THE RECIPIENT of your SPIRITUAL BODY, wherein YOUR NATURAL BODY IS PUT TO DEATH, and your New Created body, is RAISED TO LIFE.

This can ONLY happen in this dimension of a life.
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Powerless? Willing to leave them so?
Man chose sin pcamps, lest you forget, and man is already condemned.
God could very well have left us all to die, but He didn't. That is mercy.
He chooses to elect those who respond to His grace.

And yes, I believe Christ died for everyone, as HE became SIN, but the scriptures are strict, you must profess your faith, to have eternal life, and BE THE RECIPIENT of your SPIRITUAL BODY, wherein YOUR NATURAL BODY IS PUT TO DEATH, and your New Created body, is RAISED TO LIFE.

This can ONLY happen in this dimension of a life.
The faith to believe is given to us by God himself.

In Romans 11 verse 32 it says God has concluded them all in unbelief , that he might have mercy upon them all(you can argue that he is talking about Israel or the whole world that is besides the point) , he had mercy on them all while in unbelief and not in faith, in other words from His side it's done , He's the God that calls the things that are not as though they were, you may not see all Israel saved , yet God does because he's a faith God and accomplishes his desires.


Has i have already pointed out condemnation does not come from God but man's own conscience.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3 verse 17

Romans 5 verse 8 tells us He did what no man would even think of doing and that is to die for the powerless to save himself ungodly sinner , in other words man without the ability to change his own plight God had to be the Savior to all (because we couldn't save ourselves, because of unbelief Romans 11:32) and deliver mankind who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I have absolutely no doubt that there is an appointed time for all to believe , we can preach until we are blue in the face to some poor soul but unless it's his appointed time they will not believe . When it says Now is the day of salvation it means exactly that ,we all have our day and when it comes faith is birthed in us, to believe it's remotely to do with us conjuring up faith of our own making to believe is a slap in the face to the gospel of grace.
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The faith to believe is given to us by God himself.

In Romans 11 verse 32 it says God has concluded them all in unbelief , that he might have mercy upon them all(you can argue that he is talking about Israel or the whole world that is besides the point) , he had mercy on them all while in unbelief and not in faith, in other words from His side it's done , He's the God that calls the things that are not as though they were, you may not see all Israel saved , yet God does because he's a faith God and accomplishes his desires.
Keyword...Israel...not entire human race for all time. Israel, the New Jerusalem, Mt Zion, etc, etc, is not the whole world. Vessels.

Quote:
Has i have already pointed out condemnation does not come from God but man's own conscience.
I don't believe you have done this. On the conrtary, it was pointed out, scripturally, that GOD condemned man BECAUSE of his sin.

Quote:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.John 3 verse 17
might be saved.....σωθῇ ...conditional.

Quote:
Romans 5 verse 8 tells us He did what no man would even think of doing and that is to die for the powerless to save himself ungodly sinner , in other words man without the ability to change his own plight God had to be the Savior to all (because we couldn't save ourselves, because of unbelief Romans 11:32) and deliver mankind who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
You are correct. No one saves but God/Christ Himself.

Quote:
I have absolutely no doubt that there is an appointed time for all to believe , we can preach until we are blue in the face to some poor soul but unless it's his appointed time they will not believe . When it says Now is the day of salvation it means exactly that ,we all have our day and when it comes faith is birthed in us, to believe it's remotely to do with us conjuring up faith of our own making to believe is a slap in the face to the gospel of grace.
The appointed time for any man or woman, is in this life only. And once their SOMA dies, without Christ, so does the rest of them, unfortunately.
This is why the gospel is here, to procaim it, so that they might be saved.
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Old 05-03-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,337 posts, read 20,079,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Keyword...Israel...not entire human race for all time. Israel, the New Jerusalem, Mt Zion, etc, etc, is not the whole world. Vessels.

I said whether it was referring to all Israel or the whole world was beside the point the key word is UNBELIEF , he had mercy upon them all in unbelief. Do you really believe that the very same God can have mercy upon the gentile in unbelief ?



I don't believe you have done this. On the conrtary, it was pointed out, scripturally, that GOD condemned man BECAUSE of his sin.

Post 47



might be saved.....σωθῇ ...conditional.

The gospel of Grace is not conditional , salvation comes to us and not the other way around



You are correct. No one saves but God/Christ Himself.

I thought you said it was conditional


The appointed time for any man or woman, is in this life only. And once their SOMA dies, without Christ, so does the rest of them, unfortunately.
This is why the gospel is here, to procaim it, so that they might be saved.

The gospel is preached that we are able to live in abundant life in this life and not for escaping the myth of some eternal hell .
Come unto me all you that are weary and heavy laden and i will give you rest , for my yoke is easy and my burden is light (it's the burden of this life that he came to set us free from and in doing so for the life to come also)

I believe it's impossible to share the good news of his marvellous grace effectively while believing in eternal torment and so adamantly.

34When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

I also find it hard to believe that believing in eternal torment you cannot see how God sees the lost , with compassion.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-03-2010 at 07:00 PM..
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I believe it's impossible to share the good news of his marvellous grace effectively while believing in eternal torment and so adamantly.
The destination of the wicked is but a small portion of the gospel, why focus there only? Why is it good news anyway?

Because there is redemption from what you already have.
Death.

Quote:
34
Quote:
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
Keyword...teach. He also taught destruction....lest you forget.

Quote:
I also find it hard to believe that believing in eternal torment you cannot see how God sees the lost , with compassion.
Of course He had compassion, precisley why Christ had to die.

The issue here is not we deserve redemption. None of us do. Not one.
It is not that redemption is forced upon all of creation. This goes against everything God is about. God wants worship, praise, love, circumcision of the heart. The gospel is the "offering" of redemption for all creation....hence.....sin offering.

An offering must be used, utilized, and recieved to be of any effect.
He is the saviour of all men, ESPECIALLY those that BELIEVE.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Your appointed time has to be in this life.
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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He taught destruction but destruction is only eternal in the mind of those who believe in eternal torment.

Show me one place in the gospels where Jesus spoke a word of condemnation,destruction,judgement or any other thing you may think to be a threat or warning of eternal hell to the prostitute , the tax collector, the publican and whatever other person was considered an outcast in that day .Yes i know he turned over tables in the temple but there is no evidence to suggest the outcast of the day were on the receiving end of his anger .

The truth of the matter is that those who thought they trusted in the scriptures wanted to from him over a cliff when he acted in the exact opposite manner that they did towards those considered the outcast of that day


18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."Luke 4


28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.Luke 4

The only harsh word he ever had was towards those who spoke in pride towards those they thought were beneath them and yes destruction not of the eternal kind awaits those , the rock will fall on them
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,301,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
He taught destruction but destruction is only eternal in the mind of those who believe in eternal torment.


Quote:
Show me one place in the gospels where Jesus spoke a word of condemnation,destruction,judgement or any other thing you may think to be a threat or warning of eternal hell to the prostitute , the tax collector, the publican and whatever other person was considered an outcast in that day .
Look it up. You are showing us you are not versed in the scriptures by this statement alone.

Quote:
The truth of the matter is that those who thought they trusted in the scriptures wanted to from him over a cliff when he acted in the exact opposite manner that they did towards those considered the outcast of that day

18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."Luke 4


28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.Luke 4
huh?

Quote:
The only harsh word he ever had was towards those who spoke in pride of those they thought were beneath them and yes destruction not of the eternal kind awaits those , the rock will fall on them
Already fell on them.
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