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Old 05-03-2010, 07:44 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Show me one verse where he spoke directly to the prostitute, tax collector , publican and any other outcast of that day in condemnation.

Sciota i couldn't care less if you are well versed in the scriptures back to front and that you can hebrew and greek the scriptures to death i am not impressed and neither is God. All i need to know of the scriptures is that they testify of Jesus and this means to me his nature and character, that the more you get a glimpse of the more of the Father's heart you come to know.

The seed that was falling on the wayside was upon the religious of the day , because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-03-2010 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Show me one verse where he spoke directly to the prostitute, tax collector , publican and any other outcast of that day in condemnation.
What do you mean directly, like personally, individually, or in a group?
Secondly, what does this have to do with Jesus' condemnation, IMOP Jesus is God the Son, so what was said in the garden, was said by Him as well. He doesn't have to say any more, man is condemened.
You have been disproven, would you like to go for another round?
Maybe you didn't read it?

Quote:
Sciota i couldn't care less if you are well versed in the scriptures back to front and that you can hebrew and greek the scriptures to death i am not impressed and neither is God. All i need to know of the scriptures is that they testify of Jesus and this means to me his nature and character, that the more you get a glimpse of the more of the Father's heart you come to know.
My point had nothing to do with the above. So you know what God thinks huh? Take another bite......remember, he said you would see like God.

Quote:
The seed that was falling on the wayside was upon the religious of the day , because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Exactly!

Your pressuppositions precede you.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:00 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,017,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What do you mean directly, like personally, individually, or in a group?
Secondly, what does this have to do with Jesus' condemnation, IMOP Jesus is God the Son, so what was said in the garden, was said by Him as well. He doesn't have to say any more, man is condemened.
You have been disproven, would you like to go for another round?
Maybe you didn't read it?



My point had nothing to do with the above. So you know what God thinks huh? Take another bite......remember, he said you would see like God.



Exactly!

Your pressuppositions precede you.
Personally, individually or in a group . Man is not condemned of God period , man is condemned by his own conscience and by religion.



17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3 verse 17



So if God is not condemning the world through his son , who is condemning man ?

So you think God is impressed because you think you are well versed in the scriptures , i know Jesus said this.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They testify of the heart of God towards his creation ,Jesus being the very heart of God and a revelation of the true nature and character of God.

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being. Hebrews 1 verse 3.

You said your presuppositions precede you , was it me or was you boasting about being well versed in scripture ?
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
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ok pcamps...go on believing that Christ is not God in the flesh....I refuse to go down that road with you. I have been there, and that part is left up to Him as far as I am concerned . There is plenty of info out there about it, lest I should get into with you, but without that IMO, you lack the discernment of the scripture. Carry on.
God condemned man BECAUSE of his Sin.
He condemned him to die as per Gen 2 for his SIN.
You disagree with that, so you disagree with the scripture.
Your choice.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Man's deeds are evil because of one sin, and we are all condemned BECAUSE of one SIN. There was a choice, eat from the tree, DIE, don't eat from the TREE, LIVE....Man ate, God EXECUTED the DEATH plan. God condemned man because of his SIN. Everything is of GOD. All of it. He isn't some guy sitting up there in the clouds, He is everywhere, always, forever, and ever, before and after and He is the artist of everything that is. And He is the artist of the Garden of Eden, where He is the artist of the TOK, and the artist of the curse and death man had received. Hell is where His wrath is, in full force.

Wouldn't want to go there.

Yet, He is the artist of eternal life, an OFFERING, wherein Christ, the SIN OFFERING was made on behalf of mankind.
An offering made many times for Israel, but without circumcision, there is no blessing, there is only curse.

Take the offering.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-03-2010 at 09:35 PM..
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:13 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
None of these verses prove UR, yet they do disprove them. The promise is counted for those who call out to God, none other.
But I already believe that the promises (of blessing, inheriting eteral life, savlation) are only for those who call out to God. The issue is how many will call out to God. I thought I made that clear in my post when I stated that one who does not fear God does not receive mercy, and one who does not confess Jesus as LORD is not saved.

My post was intended to address:
1. How many will fear God
2. How many will confess

Who shall not fear thee? The intended answer to this rhetorical question is "none"

Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved. Every knee will bow and tongue confess... This is addressing those who need to call upon the Lord to be saved. It is not addressing those who have already called on the LORD. So defining "all the ends of the earth" here as "all who have called upon the LORD" makes no sense.

All the ends of the earth shall (future tense) remember and return to the LORD. This is about those who have not yet remembered and returned to the LORD. It is not about those who have already called out to God. Your attempt to limit this "all the ends of the earth" to "all who call out to God" turns the verse into an empty truism -- "All who will call out to the LORD will remember and call out to the LORD." Also, the "alls" in this passage are delineated by the context: "all that go down to the dust " and "none can keep his soul alive".


(BTW I disagree with your distinction to Pcamps between "calling out" and "seeking" God. There is "none seeking God" does not mean that no man is ever going to seek God. It means that everyone has sought his own ways. Even those who repent and seek God first sought their own.
  • Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them
  • Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
)
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:59 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,017,000 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
ok pcamps...go on believing that Christ is not God in the flesh....I refuse to go down that road with you. I have been there, and that part is left up to Him as far as I am concerned . There is plenty of info out there about it, lest I should get into with you, but without that IMO, you lack the discernment of the scripture. Carry on.
God condemned man BECAUSE of his Sin.
He condemned him to die as per Gen 2 for his SIN.
You disagree with that, so you disagree with the scripture.
Your choice.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Man's deeds are evil because of one sin, and we are all condemned BECAUSE of one SIN. There was a choice, eat from the tree, DIE, don't eat from the TREE, LIVE....Man ate, God EXECUTED the DEATH plan. God condemned man because of his SIN. Everything is of GOD. All of it. He isn't some guy sitting up there in the clouds, He is everywhere, always, forever, and ever, before and after and He is the artist of everything that is. And He is the artist of the Garden of Eden, where He is the artist of the TOK, and the artist of the curse and death man had received. Hell is where His wrath is, in full force.

Wouldn't want to go there.

Yet, He is the artist of eternal life, an OFFERING, wherein Christ, the SIN OFFERING was made on behalf of mankind.
An offering made many times for Israel, but without circumcision, there is no blessing, there is only curse.

Take the offering.
Sciota where have i said on this thread that Christ is not God in the flesh
????? , what has this to do with where condemnation is coming from ?.

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.

For some reason you will not answer the question of who is doing the condemning if God did not send his son into the world to condemn it ? . John 3 17 is clear that the condemnation of man is not from him and the above scripture also confirms this.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:55 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,924,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So what you are saying is he elects,drags and carry's some, but not others ?

He elects , seeks and finds , this is what a Savior is .

Do you really believe that a lifeguard would only pull from the perilous sea only those who call, then leave the rest to drown because they did not call ?.
God (the lifeguard) cast his Son Jesus Christ (the life preserver) into the sea to save those who are drowning. All they have to do is grab on to Jesus and the will be saved. But many chose to drown over accepting Jesus Christ.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
But I already believe that the promises (of blessing, inheriting eteral life, savlation) are only for those who call out to God. The issue is how many will call out to God. I thought I made that clear in my post when I stated that one who does not fear God does not receive mercy, and one who does not confess Jesus as LORD is not saved.

My post was intended to address:
1. How many will fear God
2. How many will confess

Who shall not fear thee? The intended answer to this rhetorical question is "none"

Look unto me all the ends of the earth and be saved. Every knee will bow and tongue confess... This is addressing those who need to call upon the Lord to be saved. It is not addressing those who have already called on the LORD. So defining "all the ends of the earth" here as "all who have called upon the LORD" makes no sense.

All the ends of the earth shall (future tense) remember and return to the LORD. This is about those who have not yet remembered and returned to the LORD. It is not about those who have already called out to God. Your attempt to limit this "all the ends of the earth" to "all who call out to God" turns the verse into an empty truism -- "All who will call out to the LORD will remember and call out to the LORD." Also, the "alls" in this passage are delineated by the context: "all that go down to the dust " and "none can keep his soul alive".




(BTW I disagree with your distinction to Pcamps between "calling out" and "seeking" God. There is "none seeking God" does not mean that no man is ever going to seek God. It means that everyone has sought his own ways. Even those who repent and seek God first sought their own.
  • Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them
  • Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
)

TKC,

An eschatological Universalist?

This means that at the "end" everyone will come to the faith.
But what about those that have already died?
This is the core issue with UR, and what makes it UR, otherwise without that, it is just another "millenial" position in eschatology.

All "millenial" positions believe that creation will be reconciled, and we will all live in harmony, free from sin, death, and evil on this earth.
What makes you different, is the post mortem reconciliation, where in scripture, is nowhere to be found. Even the bolded above, is nowhere to be found either.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,342 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Sciota where have i said on this thread that Christ is not God in the flesh
????? , what has this to do with where condemnation is coming from ?.

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.

For some reason you will not answer the question of who is doing the condemning if God did not send his son into the world to condemn it ? . John 3 17 is clear that the condemnation of man is not from him and the above scripture also confirms this.
I don't need to answer it, because the scripture answered it for you. CHRIST WAS THERE IN THE BEGINNING. He broke the chains of that execution for those who have faith in Him. That is what the text teaches.
You are getting some things mixed up here. Sin condems man, there is no doubt about that, and I agree with you, but what you are missing is the ORIGINAL SIN that started it all. THE ORIGINAL SIN where God carried out His execution plan on ADAM and his seed. Because of Sin , God condemened man. From there onward, sin condemns man. Get it?

And about God in the flesh, your interpretation of Hebrews in one of your previous posts led me to believe that you did not, and chose the representation theory, rather than HE IS JESUS CHRIST IN THE FLESH.

Forgive me if I am mistaken.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:07 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,566,201 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
TKC,

An eschatological Universalist?

This means that at the "end" everyone will come to the faith.
But what about those that have already died?
This is the core issue with UR, and what makes it UR, otherwise without that, it is just another "millenial" position in eschatology.

All "millenial" positions believe that creation will be reconciled, and we will all live in harmony, free from sin, death, and evil on this earth.
What makes you different, is the post mortem reconciliation, where in scripture, is nowhere to be found. Even the bolded above, is nowhere to be found either.
(A) God says that all will remember and turn to the LORD (all that go down to the dust, and none can keep his soul alive).

Is it right for me to reason from (A) like this?
1. (A) implies post mortem salvation
2. Post mortem salvation is not explicitly stated scripture
3. Therefore (A) must not be true

Is it not presumptous for me to assume that God must explicitly state all truths in scripture?

Besides
1. There is also no explicit statement contrawise.
2. Ezekiel 16 seems to imply post-mortem salvation.
3. God's mercy endures "forever" or "throughout the ages" implies that post-mortem salvation is available to anyone who turns to God.



I don't consider myself to be eschatalogical at least not in the sense I think you mean it. IMO the end-time scriptures primarily describe spiritual events in individual lives (whether this life or in the resurrection) as opposed to literal future events that are fulfilled one time in the history of mankind.
  • Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled
I believe that the above scripture was fullilled in that generation. But I also believe it continues to be fulfilled because Christ's words do not pass away.
  • Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
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