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Old 04-30-2010, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Is the New Heavens and Earth the reconciliation event?

This can be answered by all views...thanks in advance for your answers and explanations.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:29 PM
 
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At this stage what I see is that the new heavens and earth is the spiritual change in who are Gods chosen people to witness his message to all mankind.

I do believe the new heavens and earth are now.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
At this stage what I see is that the new heavens and earth is the spiritual change in who are Gods chosen people to witness his message to all mankind

I do believe the new heavens and earth are now.
Thanks....in regards to God being all in all, since that is UR's premise of "complete reconciliation" for all mankind, do you, or anyone else, believe that this is the time in which this took place and was fully realized?

And what other verse can anyone provide the context(s) of God being all in all, wherein the nature of this reconciliation is realized?
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thanks....in regards to God being all in all, since that is UR's premise of "complete reconciliation" for all mankind, do you, or anyone else, believe that this is the time in which this took place and was fully realized?

And what other verse can anyone provide the context(s) of God being all in all, wherein the nature of this reconciliation is realized?
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

What it seems to me there are physical things and spiritual things, I believe there is a national level and an individual, For Judaism the old heavens and earth are past and are no more, physical Israel is gone, Revelation on the physical level is complete, however on a spiritual level it is continuing, the elect are being gathered, the priests and kings have a purpose to proclaim the salvation to the world --- It is not yet fully realised on an individual level yet in all people -- the priests and kings are Gods witnesses, messengers and ambassadors of Christ and the reconciliation that he made for all.

Just to let you know that I do not like the labels that generalise. I think that on an individual spiritual level these verse is targeted at christianity

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

What I notice is that in Rev 21:24 there are the kings of the earth (which as you say believers are the kings and priests) and there are the nations that are saved as well - I see more than the kings and priests being the only ones saved.

At times when I have discussed things with you you seem to claim metaphorical meanings only when it suits your doctrine.

ie the destruction that Jesus said was coming to the Jews in 70AD via gehenna (burning of dead bodies) is a metaphor for the eternal spiritual living suffering in a spiritual fiery hell for unbelievers.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
What I notice is that in Rev 21:24 there are the kings of the earth (which as you say believers are the kings and priests) and there are the nations that are saved as well - I see more than the kings and priests being the only ones saved.
Rev 21 is not the referrence to that, but Rev 1 and 20.

Quote:
At times when I have discussed things with you you seem to claim metaphorical meanings only when it suits your doctrine.
Depending on the context.

Quote:
ie the destruction that Jesus said was coming to the Jews in 70AD via gehenna (burning of dead bodies) is a metaphor for the eternal spiritual living suffering in a spiritual fiery hell for unbelievers.
Gehenna is used covenantally IMO, for the Jews only.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:31 PM
 
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Hi Sciotamicks,

Remember this scripture?

Matthew 5

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


If the heaven and the earth have NOT disappeared then the law has not been fulfilled. This goes into direct conflict with what Jesus said in verse 17:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

If the heavens and the earth still remain Jesus was not successful in fulfilling the Law. We must then come to the conclusion that the heavens and the earth were not meant to be literal in this scripture. If they were then Jesus failed.

When the terms "heavens and the earth" are used, a jew hearing this would have been reminded of Isaiah:

Isaiah 51

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

We have to remember when this scripture was written. It was written before the New Covenant was fulfilled. The subject of this scripture is Israel. Who were the people whose words God put in their mouths? It was of course the jews. What word did he put? The words of the Law. Israel was given the Old Covenant Law in Deuteronomy but the above scripture clearly states that God planted the heavens and the earth at that time.

God could not be talking about physical creation since that was already fulfilled in Genesis. The "heaven's and earth" that was created was in reference to the Old Covenant Law which went to Israel and that is the heavens and the earth.

God is equating the heavens and the earth with the Old Covenant. The removal of said "heavens and the earth" could only mean the changing of Covenants with which is what Jesus is clearly stating He would fulfill and at that time the old "heavens and the earth" would be removed.

This is Biblical literature. The heavens and the earth is a reference to the Old and New Covenants. If this was meant to be literal then according to scripture the Old Covenant Law is still in effect and Jesus did not fulfill it.

Scripture interpreting scripture.

God Bless!
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:15 AM
 
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New Heaven and the new earth will occur after Judgement day after all people are resurrected from the dead and brought to stand before Jesus Christ for the reason that the end will not come until the whole world has as witness of the gospel so they can stand before Jesus and be Judged a second and final time....... All darkness spirits will be gone for good and all people who rebelled against the purpose of Lord Jesus will be gone and the Lord will have full authority over the earth and Heaven were it was before and during Adam walk in the Garden of Eden......There will be a new Heaven because to purpose to help the earth overcome living with darkness will end and the Angels will be given new purposes in Heaven than before...... Jesus has authority over the Heaven and the Earth today but darkness can still override him though the will of man......
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Is the New Heavens and Earth the reconciliation event?

This can be answered by all views...thanks in advance for your answers and explanations.
The new heavens and new earth is not the reconciliation of all in the heavens and all on the earth as Colossians 1:20 states.

Whenever you have reigning going on of kings, sovereignties, authorities and Christ as there will be on the new earth you have insubbordination being dealt with.

It is only when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and power are done away and God is All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28) can there be real reconciliation of all.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:02 AM
 
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In rev we read this:

Rev 7 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

i read this as one comes to the full knowledge, he is the final product that God wanted, no more hunger , no more thirst because the total truth and knowledge has been revealed

Then we have later in revelations this:
Rev 22 16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Here the invitation is still open, saying WHOSOEVER is athirst,.... come

i believe this ties in with the scripture that tells us that each in his own order, it's all in Gods' timing when we come to the knowledge of the truth

in Luke 3 he quotes isiaha that "all flesh shall see the salvation of God"





Blessings ya'll
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,285,528 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
The new heavens and new earth is not the reconciliation of all in the heavens and all on the earth as Colossians 1:20 states.

It is only when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and power are done away and God is All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28) can there be real reconciliation of all.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1 Cor 15:54 Death is swallowed up in victory.

Quote:
Whenever you have reigning going on of kings, sovereignties, authorities and Christ as there will be on the new earth you have insubbordination being dealt with.
Quit reigning?

In his letter to the Corinthians, the apostle is discussing the Lordís present reign as mediator between God and man ó His redemptive reign.
Other passages address Christís regal glory as a divine being.
In that sense ó as deity ó He will forever reign.

Rev 1:5-6 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 3:21 He who overcomes, I will give to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throneĒ (cf. 11:15).

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
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