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Old 05-01-2010, 11:49 AM
 
12,648 posts, read 6,509,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Also notice that Jesus said it was the children (of that generation) that would inherit the kingdom.. not because they are simple but because they would grow up IN the kingdom.

I have to agree with the atheist on this one. Revelation's symbolism is entirely foreign to us unless we compare it to an LSD trip... but to the people who actually read it the first time (the 7 churches it was sent to in the 1st century) it made sense... so why do people even wonder now what it means when it was written to others? IMO it will NEVER make sense to us because it was NOT meant for us...

Mike.. if you can prove that Revelation applies to the 21 century... then that would be something.... but you can't as it was written to and acted upon by men and women alive in the 1st century!
There is no point in trying to prove anything to someone who denies that Jesus Christ is God and thinks that He had a sin nature, who doesn't believe in the triune nature of God, who doesn't believe in Heaven, or Hell, or Satan, or in angels in general as actual beings, and who thinks that all prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-01-2010 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
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Sola scriptura.....my comment to all futurists, if we were to apply a strict hermeneutic of INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE ONLY, then who is the harlot woman riding the scarlet beast who has blood on her hands from all the prophets and saints of the land?

Who? Remember, you must interpret the text with the identification of what the scriptrue tells you.
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:29 PM
 
4,719 posts, read 3,811,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I believe I explained the issue quite well. In the midst of the changing conditions of the various dispensations of human history, of which the Millennium is the last, God is demonstrating to all of creation that given free will, there are both those who will choose for God and those who will reject God. God allows Satan to be released at the end of the Millennium so that he can make his last act of rebellion against God and incite those members of the human race who have chosen to reject Christ to make their final expression of their rejection of Him. God then clears the decks and confines all who have rebelled against Him, both angelic and human, to the eternal lake of fire, and those who have chosen for God will continue on in their eternal relationship with Him.

God could have sent Satan into the lake of fire at the very moment he rebelled against God. But it pleased God to demonstrate in every possible way to His creation that He is justified in sending those who reject Him into eternal punishment. That is why he created man and that is the purpose of human history. And underlying all of that is that all that God does is for His own glory. For His own pleasure. To all of creation, God expresses His grace, His love, and His holiness. Therefore based on their own personal volition with regard to God's plan, individual members of both the angelic race and the human race will either have a glorious eternal relationship with God or an eternity apart from God in shame, ruin, uselessness, and torment in the place described among other things as the lake of fire.

Since you are an atheist, none of this will make any sense to you. Neither will it make sense to professing believers and believers who have set themselves against the truth. But I post it for the benefit of believers who are positive toward the word of God.

The whole "God allows" thing is quite disturbing, don't you think? Take careful note here that if there is NO Satan there is NO trouble. When Satan is present, there is trouble. If this is the case, what pleasure is god deriving from unleashing Satan on the helpless world again?
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:33 PM
 
5,501 posts, read 2,384,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
The whole "God allows" thing is quite disturbing, don't you think? Take careful note here that if there is NO Satan there is NO trouble. When Satan is present, there is trouble. If this is the case, what pleasure is god deriving from unleashing Satan on the helpless world again?
...
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:39 PM
 
4,719 posts, read 3,811,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I believe I explained the issue quite well. In the midst of the changing conditions of the various dispensations of human history, of which the Millennium is the last, God is demonstrating to all of creation that given free will, there are both those who will choose for God and those who will reject God. God allows Satan to be released at the end of the Millennium so that he can make his last act of rebellion against God and incite those members of the human race who have chosen to reject Christ to make their final expression of their rejection of Him. God then clears the decks and confines all who have rebelled against Him, both angelic and human, to the eternal lake of fire, and those who have chosen for God will continue on in their eternal relationship with Him.

God could have sent Satan into the lake of fire at the very moment he rebelled against God. But it pleased God to demonstrate in every possible way to His creation that He is justified in sending those who reject Him into eternal punishment. That is why he created man and that is the purpose of human history. And underlying all of that is that all that God does is for His own glory. For His own pleasure. To all of creation, God expresses His grace, His love, and His holiness. Therefore based on their own personal volition with regard to God's plan, individual members of both the angelic race and the human race will either have a glorious eternal relationship with God or an eternity apart from God in shame, ruin, uselessness, and torment in the place described among other things as the lake of fire.

Since you are an atheist, none of this will make any sense to you. Neither will it make sense to professing believers and believers who have set themselves against the truth. But I post it for the benefit of believers who are positive toward the word of God.
Mike, I get the feeling that you believe you alone and those who believe as you do are the ONLY ones who have and know the truth. Only YOUR interpretations(s) are the correct one(s)?
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Old 05-01-2010, 04:49 PM
 
10,172 posts, read 4,819,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sola scriptura.....my comment to all futurists, if we were to apply a strict hermeneutic of INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE ONLY, then who is the harlot woman riding the scarlet beast who has blood on her hands from all the prophets and saints of the land?

Who? Remember, you must interpret the text with the identification of what the scriptrue tells you.
Whoever she is she is yet in the future because John wrote Revelation around 96 A.D. to 97 A.D. and was in spirit IN the future day of the Lord and wrote what he saw in that far off future day.

Rev 1:10-11 I came to be, in spirit, in the Lord's day, and I hear behind me a voice, loud as a trumpet, (11) saying, "What you are observing write into a scroll."
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:07 PM
 
4,614 posts, read 2,591,183 times
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During the thousand year reign the power of Christ will be many times the power is it today so to keep a witness for the Lord on the strenght of the human nature with the devil in the years from the fall of man to Blessing of Isaac, then with some power from the Blessing of Isaac to Jesus Christ , then from Jesus Christ age of Grace to Jesus second coming,,,, then the second Coming in a world free of Satan to Judgement day is a witness to the Lord who will spend eternaty with man, Where Jesus is called to son of Man which means he is the greatest witness to the Lord on the nature of Man .... This witness is very important to the Lord god because he lost a very large amount of his Angels to rebellion with satan......... So during the 1,ooo year reign men will sin and the devil will have to be released to the authority to darkness and rule of this sin that man commited and this sin will grow and begin to deceive the nation once again and the end will come..... People believe the Lord just put the devil out and go do it, but man will have to sin first before satan is released.......Some people believe this all happened already but that their business ..........
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,640,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There is no point in trying to prove anything to someone who denies that Jesus Christ is God and thinks that He had a sin nature, who doesn't believe in the triune nature of God, who doesn't believe in Heaven, or Hell, or Satan, or in angels in general as actual beings, and who thinks that all prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
So in other words you cannot prove that any of those things exist or that the bible (specifically Revelation) was written to people in the 21st century or any other century after the 1st one!

That is fine... If you can't prove it then it is probable that Heaven, Hell, Satan, and angels don't exist and Rev. wasn't written for anyone but those who read it in the first century...

Admitting this is the first step... Kudos to Mike!
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
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Eusebius,

Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem. You ought to freshen up on this one....it has already been addressed on many literary works by many theologians and linguists alike. Irenaeus' translation is all this idea you present as it's foundation, and has been thoroughly concluded.

In short, it does NOT say "For it was seen", but rather "for he was seen"....towards the end of Domitian's reign. The pronoun here is dealing with the subject of the context, John, not the vision.
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:05 PM
 
10,172 posts, read 4,819,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eusebius,

Revelation was written prior to the fall of Jerusalem. You ought to freshen up on this one....it has already been addressed on many literary works by many theologians and linguists alike. Irenaeus' translation is all this idea you present as it's foundation, and has been thoroughly concluded.

In short, it does NOT say "For it was seen", but rather "for he was seen"....towards the end of Domitian's reign. The pronoun here is dealing with the subject of the context, John, not the vision.
The day of the Lord has not come yet. John was in spirit IN the Lord's day. That day is yet future.

Remember, the great global earthquake in which the cities of the nations shall fall, the great city be divided into three parts and the islands moved must occur first before the great and terrible DAY OF THE LORD. That has not happened yet therefore the great and terrible DAY OF THE LORD has not occurred yet therefore John saw way into the future past our day.
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