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Old 05-01-2010, 07:09 PM
 
12,881 posts, read 6,961,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So in other words you cannot prove that any of those things exist or that the bible (specifically Revelation) was written to people in the 21st century or any other century after the 1st one!

That is fine... If you can't prove it then it is probable that Heaven, Hell, Satan, and angels don't exist and Rev. wasn't written for anyone but those who read it in the first century...

Admitting this is the first step... Kudos to Mike!
What I said is that there is no point in trying to explain anything to someone who in complete contradiction to the word of God denies the deity of Christ. And who denies the existence of Satan and angels when the Bible clearly says that they exist. And who denies the existance of heaven and hell. In other words what I said is this...

Proverbs 27:22 Though you pound a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his folly will not depart from him.

Proverbs 23:9 Do not teach a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.

This is what I said.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,327,267 times
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Eusebius,

Your use of "in the Lord's day" dismantles your view.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The book of Revelation was an actual letter from John to the seven churches in Asia Minor. It is not a mystical open-ended letter written to any and all churches that have existed since then. Neither do the seven churches represent different church ages. They were real churches, and it was to them that the events of Revelation would "soon" happen. But you can believe what you want and call Christ, Paul, James, Peter, John and every other OT prophet and saint a liar, that's fine by me. We will be here waiting for you with open arms.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-01-2010 at 07:32 PM..
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
The whole "God allows" thing is quite disturbing, don't you think? Take careful note here that if there is NO Satan there is NO trouble. When Satan is present, there is trouble. If this is the case, what pleasure is god deriving from unleashing Satan on the helpless world again?
Even with Satan locked away, and even in the midst of the perfect environment of the Millennium, man still has his old sin nature, and there will still be at least some crime in the Millennium. Even without the influence and deception of Satan, there will be those who reject Christ. And there will still be wickedness.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

The passage above is about Jesus Christ ruling as the righteous judge from the throne of David in the Millennium.

When Satan is released at the end of the Millennium, it is so that all those who have had a rebellious heart through out the kingdom-age will be brought out in the open for all to see.

The Millennium shows that perfect enivonment is not the answer to man's problems.

As I have already said, none of this can make any sense to you because you don't even believe in God. But I do urge those who are believers to go into the links I provided on the subject of the angelic conflict and learn something about why man and human history exists.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
14,116 posts, read 10,081,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I realize that some Christians around here believe in a LITERAL interpretation of the Bible so to them I ask is, what exactly is the point of Satan being released AFTER being bound for 1,000 years which results in the whole earth FINALLY being at peace? He is released (again) and immediately goes off to cause havoc. Doesn't this make god sadistic?
I think He's just giving the poor loser one last shot.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Mike, I get the feeling that you believe you alone and those who believe as you do are the ONLY ones who have and know the truth. Only YOUR interpretations(s) are the correct one(s)?
Truth is absolute, not relative. Those who do not approach the word of God from a dispensational standpoint have no chance of rightly dividing the word of truth. Those who allegorize those things which are plainly literal have no chance of understanding God's revealed word.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:33 PM
 
Location: PA
45 posts, read 25,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sola scriptura.....my comment to all futurists, if we were to apply a strict hermeneutic of INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE with SCRIPTURE ONLY, then who is the harlot woman riding the scarlet beast who has blood on her hands from all the prophets and saints of the land?

Who? Remember, you must interpret the text with the identification of what the scriptrue tells you.
"Prostitution is often a graphic metaphor in Scripture that symbolizes unfaithfulness to God, idolatry, and religious apostasy (see Jeremiah 3:6-9, Ezekiel 20:30, Hosea 4:15, 5:3, 6:10, 9:1). In the book of Revelation, the great prostitute symbolizes the apostate religious system of Babylon - probably apostate Christendom, embracing all those who were "left behind" following the rapture, and perhaps referring to the ecumenical church. ..... Scripture reveals that the kings of the earth commit adultery with this harlot, and become a part of the religious system she symbolizes (see Revelation 14:8). This false religious system, then, is pervasive in its influence, working hand-in-hand with the political system of the end times."

Just something out of a book I've been reading. HTH
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,327,267 times
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Bellamamma,

You are close.....the harlot is none other than who the harlot is. Israel. Read Hosea, all of it.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:48 PM
 
701 posts, read 408,142 times
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To properly understand the question of the OP, one must first gain proper understanding of the 1000 years. The following site goes into great detail regarding both, and I have posted excerpts from it.

The 1000 Year Millennium Bible Truth

Quote:
What is the real truth about the thousand years?

To discover the answer, we must carefully examine the only authoritative source where it’s taught, the Bible, especially chapter 20 in the book of Revelation. Let’s see what Revelation 20 actually says, and doesn’t say.

Here’s Revelation 20 in its entirety:

“1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20, King James Version, with verses left in)”

Now here’s a brief summary of each verse (we will soon take a closer look at these events):

vs. 1 - An angel descends from heaven with a key and a chain.
vs. 2 - He binds Satan for 1000 years.
vs. 3 - During the 1000 years Satan cannot deceive the nations any more.
vs. 4 - Martyrs are resurrected to reign with Jesus Christ for 1000 years.
vs. 5a - The rest of the dead will be raised at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 6 - Those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for 1000 years.
vs. 7 - Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years.
vs. 8 – After the rest of the dead are raised, Satan deceives them again. There will be billions - like the sand of the sea. They are called Gog and Magog. Satan gathers them for a final battle.
vs. 9 - Satan and this host surround God's City. Fire comes down and devours them.
vs. 10 - Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet end up in this lake of fire.
vs. 11 - Before this fire falls, a final judgment occurs.
vs. 12 - All the resurrected lost are judged.
vs. 13 - Another description of the resurrected lost being judged.
vs. 14 - Death and Hell [Hades-Grave] are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
vs. 15 - All the resurrected lost are cast into the lake of fire.

To break it down even further: there is a ‘good resurrection’ (called “the first resurrection”) at the beginning of the 1000 years (vs. 4-6), whereas “the rest of the dead” are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years (vs. 5a). Satan is bound during the 1000 years (vs. 3), but is loosed “when the thousand years are expired” and “the rest of the dead” are raised (compare verses 5a and 7). Satan gathers the lost for a final battle against God's City (vs. 8). A final judgment occurs, and then the lost are punished in the lake of fire (verses 9, 14-15). Then the old earth passes, and the new earth comes (Revelation 21:1).

The above points are undeniable, for this is exactly what Revelation 20 says. Two significant facts should be noted:

Revelation 20 doesn’t say there will be peace on earth during the 1000 years.
Revelation 20 doesn’t say Jesus Christ will rule during the 1000 years from the present city of Jerusalem.
These common doctrines are being taught worldwide but are not found in Revelation 20, the only place in God’s Word that specifically mentions the 1000-year period. Now let’s go deeper.
The Bottomless Pit

Quote:
Crucial to understanding the Millennium are the first texts of Revelation 20, verses 1 and 2. According to these texts, Satan is bound with “a great chain” and confined to “the bottomless pit” for 1000 years. The expression, “a great chain,” doesn’t mean a literal chain. Even today, all of “the angels that sinned” with Lucifer are described as being in “chains of darkness” (2 Peter 2:4). These words do not refer to actual clinking and clanging metal, but to circumstances of darkness that these angels find themselves in after having been booted out of heaven.

During the 1000 years, Satan is represented as being bound with a chain because his new circumstances prevent him from deceiving the nations during the Millennium (Revelation 20:2). Again, what are those circumstances? Everyone left on earth is dead.

What’s this “bottomless pit”? In the Old Testament the word “pit” often refers to a grave, a cemetery, or to the place of the dead.

Psalms 55:23 - Evil men will go “down into the pit of destruction.”
Numbers 16:32-33 - “the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up ... into the pit.”
Ezekiel 32:22-23 - “his graves are about him ... in the sides of the pit ... all of them slain.”
Psalms 28:1 - David prayed not to “become like them that go down to the pit.”
Psalms 69:15 - “Let not the pit shut her mouth upon me.”

Isaiah 14 contains one of the Old Testaments clearest prophecies about Lucifer. He was cast out of heaven (vs. 12) for exalting himself (vs. 13). Yet he is to be brought down “to the sides of the pit” (vs. 15). Isaiah 14:18-21 perfectly parallels the prophecy in Revelation 20:1-3. “All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house [the grave]. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet. Thou shall not be joined with them in burial” (Isaiah 14:18-21)

These verses predict a time when all the nations are slain and lie in their graves, yet Satan will not join them in burial. He will be left, instead, to wander among earth’s ruins. Notice carefully: “Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, thou inhabitant of the earth ... The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be moved like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it, and it shall fall and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in prison, and after many days shall they be visited” (Isaiah 24:17-22).

This is a prediction of a destroyed and devastated earth. Its inhabitants are gathered as prisoners in the pit [the grave]. When Revelation 20:1-3 describes Satan as bound with a chain for 1000 years, this means that a chain of circumstances will prevent him from deceiving the nations. The major circumstance is the return of Jesus Christ in “flaming fire” (2 Thessalonians 2:8), the “sudden destruction” of sinners (1 Thessalonians 5:3), the largest earthquake in history (Revelation 16:18), the global crumbling of cities (Revelation 16:19), the disappearing of mountains and islands (Revelation 16:20), and the total depopulation of planet Earth just like “it was in the days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37-39). This “great day of the Lord” will come “as a destruction from the Almighty” (Joel 1:15). “And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be as dung upon the ground” (Jeremiah 25:33).

Earth will then be like one gigantic bottomless pit, a huge cemetery. Jeremiah predicted: “I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger” (Jeremiah 4:23 -26). As Satan and his angels behold their kingdom in ruins, they can only wander about, counsel together, and contemplate with trembling the final events to occur at the end of the 1000 years.

Yet it doesn’t end here. We mustn’t forget the last section of Isaiah 24:17-22, which predicts that those who lie dead in their graves “shall be visited” (Isaiah 24:22). What could that possibly mean other than what we have seen in Revelation 20:5? “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” It’s what Jesus was talking about when He warned about the “the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29). This occurs at the end of the Millennium.

Far, then, from being a time of earthly glory when Jesus reigns from Jerusalem, the Millennium is a time when earth lies waste, in desolate ruins, a prison house for Satan and his demons.
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Old 05-02-2010, 08:33 AM
 
4,832 posts, read 3,976,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Even with Satan locked away, and even in the midst of the perfect environment of the Millennium, man still has his old sin nature, and there will still be at least some crime in the Millennium. Even without the influence and deception of Satan, there will be those who reject Christ. And there will still be wickedness.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

The passage above is about Jesus Christ ruling as the righteous judge from the throne of David in the Millennium.

When Satan is released at the end of the Millennium, it is so that all those who have had a rebellious heart through out the kingdom-age will be brought out in the open for all to see.

The Millennium shows that perfect enivonment is not the answer to man's problems.

As I have already said, none of this can make any sense to you because you don't even believe in God. But I do urge those who are believers to go into the links I provided on the subject of the angelic conflict and learn something about why man and human history exists.
Mike, making sense of this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether I believe in any god or not. It makes no sense because it makes no sense. This may be news to you but I know all about the dispensationalist views. I know because I used to teach the stuff, however, in the scope of what I wanted to believe (despite the facts), this did NOT make any of it true.
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Old 05-02-2010, 10:16 AM
 
12,881 posts, read 6,961,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Mike, making sense of this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether I believe in any god or not. It makes no sense because it makes no sense. This may be news to you but I know all about the dispensationalist views. I know because I used to teach the stuff, however, in the scope of what I wanted to believe (despite the facts), this did NOT make any of it true.
The word of God is absolute truth. Those who are spiritually dead (those who have never believed in Christ for salvation), and those who are carnal (out of fellowship-under the control of their old sin nature) can't understand the things of God. And those who veer away from the truth having once known it are of a rebellous nature. What the scriptures say to be true is true. That you choose not to believe the scriptures is your affair.

I am not posting any of what I have posted on this thread for your benefit. I wouldn't waste the time. I am posting for the benefit of those to whom it does make sense. For those who are interested in the truth of God's word.
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