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Old 05-04-2010, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Hagerman, Idaho
2,237 posts, read 4,890,748 times
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Kind of sad really that there are many if not most that think it's all about a free ride. The Hebrew language for one thing, is NOT a literal language as Greek is. You all read from a Greek translation. Good luck getting the true intent of scripture from THAT! I assure you Yahshua and HIS Talmadim read, spoke and understood from a Hebrew mind set....why? Because they were Hebrews! They followed the Moadim (the appointed times of YHVH set forth from the early days in the Torah/Tanakh) and they NEVER ceased to do so. Paul (Rav Shaul) even made a sacrifice in the Temple AFTER he became a Believer (never became a xtian that's just a name the Romans referred to them after Antioch). They remained observant Jews as did the Messiah HIMSELF. Hebrew is an "Action" language, just as in the prayer which is recited by all Jewish people...the "Shema" which means "Hear with the INTENT to DO". It's all about your "Halakah" your "walk" in life.....what you DO. If you don't accept this you'd better get another religion as the faith that Yahshua taught was NEVER changed. It was pure and not polluted as the Pharisees had done to the original Hebrew faith. You are all following "another gospel" and NOT the one that Yahshua taught I can assure you of that.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:48 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,329,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcisive View Post
Kind of sad really that there are many if not most that think it's all about a free ride. The Hebrew language for one thing, is NOT a literal language as Greek is. You all read from a Greek translation. Good luck getting the true intent of scripture from THAT! I assure you Yahshua and HIS Talmadim read, spoke and understood from a Hebrew mind set....why? Because they were Hebrews! They followed the Moadim (the appointed times of YHVH set forth from the early days in the Torah/Tanakh) and they NEVER ceased to do so. Paul (Rav Shaul) even made a sacrifice in the Temple AFTER he became a Believer (never became a xtian that's just a name the Romans referred to them after Antioch). They remained observant Jews as did the Messiah HIMSELF. Hebrew is an "Action" language, just as in the prayer which is recited by all Jewish people...the "Shema" which means "Hear with the INTENT to DO". It's all about your "Halakah" your "walk" in life.....what you DO. If you don't accept this you'd better get another religion as the faith that Yahshua taught was NEVER changed. It was pure and not polluted as the Pharisees had done to the original Hebrew faith. You are all following "another gospel" and NOT the one that Yahshua taught I can assure you of that.
Well, it is sad. But not for the reasons you've mentioned. I don't think it really matters to the flesh what language the scriptures were written in. The flesh will never receive the things of the Spirit. That much we know for sure.

Regarding the "free ride" of our salvation: For the sinner, salvation is FREE with absolutely NO COST whatsoever. The sinner does absolutely NOTHING to attain his/her salvation. If they did it would not be of grace.

On the other hand, the cost of our salvation was great indeed. It cost Jesus' His life and death on the cross. So from that perspective, our salvation costs EVERYTHING. Salvation is not about what the sinner does, but rather what Christ did for us. Christ's righteousness is either imputed to you or not. Anyone trying to establish their own righteousness (as your post seems to imply?) WILL NOT have Christ's righteousness imputed to them (Rom 10:1-3). A sinner can NEVER attain salvation, no matter how good their intentions are by what you are proposing (Rom 3:20). What you have proposed is what Christ had to do Himself on the sinner's behalf. Not what the sinner must do on his own behalf.

What you've proposed here:

the "Shema" which means "Hear with the INTENT to DO". It's all about your "Halakah" your "walk" in life.....what you DO

IS a false gospel that Paul warned us about in Gal 3:2-3.

There is NOTHING the sinner does that Christ has not already accomplished on the sinners behalf. NOTHING.

For those who believe the Gospel (I Cor 15:1-4 and Rom 4:5, 4:25 and 5:6), the ENTIRE LIFE of Jesus is credited to their account by imputation (Rom 4:22-24): Jesus' faith and faithfulness, His baptism, His works, His keeping of ALL the laws and commandments, His perfect life and obedience before God, His death for sin (our sins that were imputed to Him) and any other requirement you can think up. EVERYTHING required for the sinner to enter into life was performed by Jesus. ALL of His good works, ALL His deeds including His very death for our sins is credited to the account of those who believe, just as if they did all those things themselves. That is the Good News of the Gospel.

Furthermore, (and this is the best part ), the believer does absolutely nothing to attain this Good News of the Gospel. It is a free and righteous gift from God to the sinner (Rom 5:18), and this gift is imputed to those who believe (Rom 4:5).
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,731,646 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well, it is sad. But not for the reasons you've mentioned. I don't think it really matters to the flesh what language the scriptures were written in. The flesh will never receive the things of the Spirit. That much we know for sure.

Regarding the "free ride" of our salvation: For the sinner, salvation is FREE with absolutely NO COST whatsoever. The sinner does absolutely NOTHING to attain his/her salvation. If they did it would not be of grace.

On the other hand, the cost of our salvation was great indeed. It cost Jesus' His life and death on the cross. So from that perspective, our salvation costs EVERYTHING. Salvation is not about what the sinner does, but rather what Christ did for us. Christ's righteousness is either imputed to you or not. Anyone trying to establish their own righteousness (as your post seems to imply?) WILL NOT have Christ's righteousness imputed to them (Rom 10:1-3). A sinner can NEVER attain salvation, no matter how good their intentions are by what you are proposing (Rom 3:20). What you have proposed is what Christ had to do Himself on the sinner's behalf. Not what the sinner must do on his own behalf.

What you've proposed here:

the "Shema" which means "Hear with the INTENT to DO". It's all about your "Halakah" your "walk" in life.....what you DO

IS a false gospel that Paul warned us about in Gal 3:2-3.

There is NOTHING the sinner does that Christ has not already accomplished on the sinners behalf. NOTHING.

For those who believe the Gospel (I Cor 15:1-4 and Rom 4:5, 4:25 and 5:6), the ENTIRE LIFE of Jesus is credited to their account by imputation (Rom 4:22-24): Jesus' faith and faithfulness, His baptism, His works, His keeping of ALL the laws and commandments, His perfect life and obedience before God, His death for sin (our sins that were imputed to Him) and any other requirement you can think up. EVERYTHING required for the sinner to enter into life was performed by Jesus. ALL of His good works, ALL His deeds including His very death for our sins is credited to the account of those who believe, just as if they did all those things themselves. That is the Good News of the Gospel.

Furthermore, (and this is the best part ), the believer does absolutely nothing to attain this Good News of the Gospel. It is a free and righteous gift from God to the sinner (Rom 5:18), and this gift is imputed to those who believe (Rom 4:5).
Great post!
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,609,998 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Mike,
I did look at this. It strikes me as so many salvation pamphlets do -- it makes salvation seem like some kind of academic process. And these kinds of articles always "qualify" what someone must have "fully understood" in order to be certain of salvation. The fact is, salvation is CERTAIN because of what Christ did - which is not the same thing us our coming into into the knowledge of our salvation. God loved us before we ever gave him a fleeting thought... "while we were YET sinners - Christ DIED FOR US. Why do so many people twist that into a theological pretzel of uncertainty? I guess it is just the way man operates ... the CARNAL MIND getting in the way of what God is doing. This whole world makes me tired. So glad I've learned to REST in Christ.

- Heartsong

Last edited by Heartsong; 05-05-2010 at 11:21 PM.. Reason: To Clarify
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:24 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,329,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
So glad I've learned to REST in Christ.

- Heartsong
Praise God.... Me too. Jesus is truly our Sabbath....our work is finished!
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:47 AM
 
20,454 posts, read 15,835,083 times
Reputation: 7729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike,
I did look at this. It strikes me as so many salvation pamphlets do -- it makes salvation seem like some kind of academic process. And these kinds of articles always "qualify" what someone must have "fully understood" in order to be certain of salvation. The fact is, salvation is CERTAIN because of what Christ did - which is not the same thing us our coming into into the knowledge of our salvation. God loved us before we ever gave him a fleeting thought... "while we were YET sinners - Christ DIED FOR US. Why do so many people twist that into a theological pretzel of uncertainty? I guess it is just the way man operates ... the CARNAL MIND getting in the way of what God is doing. This whole world makes me tired. So glad I've learned to REST in Christ.

- Heartsong



Salvation is through faith in Christ. Without believing in Christ for salvation there is none. Faith is the vehicle by which the gift of salvation is received. Salvation is conditional on faith in Christ. The merit is not in the faith but rather, the merit is in the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. There are numerous verses in the New Testament that state the belief in Christ is required for salvation. And there are more passages that state that faith which is the same as believing, is necessary.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who don't have sense enough to understand this and heed it, are on their way to hades and then to the lake of fire.
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Old 05-06-2010, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,609,998 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Salvation is through faith in Christ. Without believing in Christ for salvation there is none. Faith is the vehicle by which the gift of salvation is received. Salvation is conditional on faith in Christ. The merit is not in the faith but rather, the merit is in the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. There are numerous verses in the New Testament that state the belief in Christ is required for salvation. And there are more passages that state that faith which is the same as believing, is necessary.

John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Those who don't have sense enough to understand this and heed it, are on their way to hades and then to the lake of fire.
Mike,
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the GLORY of God the Father. 'Bow' is a worship word. Do you really believe God planned to send billions of souls to eternal torment because the church didn't get the word out in time, or a million other reasons why someone might miss out on the good news? We are blessed to be the firstfruits of Christ - 'blessed are those who believe who have not seen'. How can you believe that God is so weak and if you believe so many, many people are headed for eternal torment, do you then spend your every waking hour grieving? If not, why not? Is it possible that you've had to harden your heart to fit your tradition? Isn't the suffering and injustice in this fallen, broken, sinful world enough suffering? Was Christ's sacrifice not sufficient to save the world? The bible says that Jesus is not only the savior of us, but also of the whole world.

Heartsong
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:47 AM
 
20,454 posts, read 15,835,083 times
Reputation: 7729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike,
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the GLORY of God the Father. 'Bow' is a worship word. Do you really believe God planned to send billions of souls to eternal torment because the church didn't get the word out in time, or a million other reasons why someone might miss out on the good news? We are blessed to be the firstfruits of Christ - 'blessed are those who believe who have not seen'. How can you believe that God is so weak and if you believe so many, many people are headed for eternal torment, do you then spend your every waking hour grieving? If not, why not? Is it possible that you've had to harden your heart to fit your tradition? Isn't the suffering and injustice in this fallen, broken, sinful world enough suffering? Was Christ's sacrifice not sufficient to save the world? The bible says that Jesus is not only the savior of us, but also of the whole world.

Heartsong
Christ is the Savior of the world only in that He died for all. That doesn't mean that all will believe in Him.

Universalism relies on subjective emotional appeals which mean absolutely nothing. Every knee will indeed bow. But the unbeliever will bow before Christ as His defeated enemy. The tongue of the unbeliever will be forced to acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Not Savior, but Lord. The unbeliever will not be joyful about this but will bow the knee and make the acknowledgement of Christ's Lordship in fear and trembling, for his realization of the truth is too late to save him. Now is the day of salvation. After you die it is too late.

God is not weak. He is eternally holy and omnipotent. And His will and purpose will be carried out. It is God's desire that all men be saved. But it is God's purpose and intention to save those and only those who respond to His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. To save those who believe and obey the Gospel. And to leave in eternal condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:35 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,609,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Christ is the Savior of the world only in that He died for all. That doesn't mean that all will believe in Him.
How shall they bow and confess in something they do not believe in/on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Universalism relies on subjective emotional appeals which mean absolutely nothing.
Are you trying to say that God has no emotions and cannot be moved with feelings of compassion? Mercy is part of God's very essence. I don't think it can rightly be downplayed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Every knee will indeed bow. But the unbeliever will bow before Christ as His defeated enemy. The tongue of the unbeliever will be forced to acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Not Savior, but Lord. The unbeliever will not be joyful about this but will bow the knee and make the acknowledgement of Christ's Lordship in fear and trembling, for his realization of the truth is too late to save him.
Only according to you and traditional church teaching. But you didn't back any of that up with scriptures. It seems that the scriptures would say such a thing very precisely if it were as simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Now is the day of salvation. After you die it is too late.
It is always NOW - every second it is NOW... NOW... NOW. It was NOW 2 thousand years ago. And it will be NOW 2000 years in the future. In the eternal realm, there is no such thing as time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is not weak. He is eternally holy and omnipotent. And His will and purpose will be carried out. It is God's desire that all men be saved.
Yep, you are correct about that. God will get what he desires.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
But it is God's purpose and intention to save those and only those who respond to His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. To save those who believe and obey the Gospel. And to leave in eternal condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation.
Now you've gone back to making stuff up and to try to use fear instead of love to draw people to Christ. Fear has it's work in destroying the flesh. But love must also have its perfect work in every last one. Not just 99 out of 100. You can never take someone back under the bondage of fear once they have been set free by Christ. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free - particularly those who were all their lifetimes subjected to bondage due to the fear of death. There are a lot of places in the NT that tell us FEAR NOT. God has not given us a spirit of fear.

Have a nice day

Heartsong
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:36 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,329,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Christ is the Savior of the world only in that He died for all. That doesn't mean that all will believe in Him.
Why is Jesus called the Savior of the world if he does not in-fact save the world?
Quote:
Universalism relies on subjective emotional appeals which mean absolutely nothing.
So do the bogus doctrines of Arminianism. Except they're much worse. They're lies. Nice try bud but you need to repent and believe the Gospel.
Quote:
Every knee will indeed bow. But the unbeliever will bow before Christ as His defeated enemy.
Any scripture to back this up? Of course not. Death is the defeated enemy of Christ, not lost sinners. Christ came to both seek and to save the lost. Not to destroy them as His enemies and set them on fire. By the way, are you going to be the guy that douses them with gasoline first? Jesus is the same today as He was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. Unless you don't believe that either...lol Put away the matches and cap the gasoline can my friend .
Quote:
The tongue of the unbeliever will be forced to acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Not Savior, but Lord.
How can the unbeliever acknowledge Christ as his Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit? Any scripture to back up your dreams? Didn't think so.
Quote:
The unbeliever will not be joyful about this but will bow the knee and make the acknowledgement of Christ's Lordship in fear and trembling, for his realization of the truth is too late to save him.
Another fantasy. Where is Dr. Roarke and little Tatoo by the way? Don't forget the suntan lotion, your gonna need it. It's awful hot where your going!
Quote:
Now is the day of salvation. After you die it is too late.
Have you ever thought about quoting that scripture correctly? Here, I'll do it for you:

2Co 6:2 for He saith, `In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in a day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, a day of salvation,' --

It is not "the day", but rather "a day". Anytime is an acceptable time for salvation.
Quote:
God is not weak. He is eternally holy and omnipotent. And His will and purpose will be carried out.
Yes it will. And that's exactly what God said in 1 Tim 2:4-6. This you've said in truth.
Quote:
It is God's desire that all men be saved. But it is God's purpose and intention to save those and only those who respond to His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. To save those who believe and obey the Gospel. And to leave in eternal condemnation those who reject His offer of salvation.
Ok, I get it now. God's desires are not His purpose and intentions. What kind of smoke are you blowing this morning...lol You Arminians are a hoot!
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