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Old 05-04-2010, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,314,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Not really. We understand 1 Timothy 2:4-6 perfectly and don't need emotional subjective feelings about those passages.
Just how much does one need to read into this:

"God will have all mankind to be saved, because Christ ransomed all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). Just believe it. Don't explain it away.
Actucally none of you do.....because the will and desire of God in this passage has nothing to do with an execution of Divine will. Nothing.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Actucally none of you do.....because the will and desire of God in this passage has nothing to do with an execution of Divine will. Nothing.
That's cute, sciota.

All mankind have been ransomed (1 Tim.2:6). Through the whole Old Testament any animal or man that was ransomed had to be freed. It was not a matter of accepting the ransom or not. If the ransom was paid they just had to be freed.

All mankind have been ransomed therefore they must be freed into God's salvation. It is not a matter of accepting their ransom. It is all up to God believing he ransom was made. It was. Therefore "God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Tim.2:4).
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Actucally none of you do.....because the will and desire of God in this passage has nothing to do with an execution of Divine will. Nothing.
Sciotamicks, according to you (ie. your own beliefs, which I do understand you think are scriptural) what is the will and desire of God? What is His "divine will"? To only save a few?
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Sciotamicks, according to you (ie. your own beliefs, which I do understand you think are scriptural) what is the will and desire of God? What is His "divine will"? To only save a few?
The information is out there, and I only present what is a false claim and a misuse of the scriptures to support something that the text is NOT saying.

The “will” of God...i.e. choice, preference, desire is often not done. Jesus himself spoke of this when at Jerusalem. He said that God’s will was to comfort and protect Jerusalem, but this desire was not to be, for Jerusalem would not cooperate with Him.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted thelo to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing thelo!

God does not force man to do his will, but allows man to freely choose whether to serve or not. As in the case of Jerusalem, so it is will all men, for God desires (wills) for all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires thelo all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

KJV: Who will have <thelo> all men to be saved
NASB: who desires <thelo> all men to be saved

Yet, we know that not all will be saved.
There were some that Luke referred to who refused the will of God.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will boule of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
Jesus declared that many follow the path of destruction – refusing the counsel (will) of God.

Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

The free will choice of man is proclaimed in many places in the New Testament with regard to salvation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

You can't use this verse anymore. It dosn't mean what you emtoionally impose into the text. It has nothing to do with the divine prophetic will of God that all men become saved. This is how false doctrines are spread.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That's cute, sciota.

All mankind have been ransomed (1 Tim.2:6). Through the whole Old Testament any animal or man that was ransomed had to be freed. It was not a matter of accepting the ransom or not. If the ransom was paid they just had to be freed.

All mankind have been ransomed therefore they must be freed into God's salvation. It is not a matter of accepting their ransom. It is all up to God believing he ransom was made. It was. Therefore "God will have all mankind to be saved and come into a realization of the truth." (1 Tim.2:4).

LOL....your view has no foundation.
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:07 PM
 
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So from this I gather you believe God wants to save all, but just won't because not all will come to Him. The problem with this view is God is frustrated for eternity because He didn't achieve what He wanted.

Then again maybe you think God wants to have people suffer forever. Then He would not be frustrated for eternity. Can you clarify that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The information is out there, and I only present what is a false claim and a misuse of the scriptures to support something that the text is NOT saying.

The “will” of God...i.e. choice, preference, desire is often not done. Jesus himself spoke of this when at Jerusalem. He said that God’s will was to comfort and protect Jerusalem, but this desire was not to be, for Jerusalem would not cooperate with Him.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted thelo to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing thelo!

God does not force man to do his will, but allows man to freely choose whether to serve or not. As in the case of Jerusalem, so it is will all men, for God desires (wills) for all men to be saved.
I believe this is an incorrect assumption here - Matt 23:37 does not mean God won't achieve what He wants. It just means that it is not achieved for the moment, because it is not the time yet. There is an appointed time for everything. Ultimately God will achieve everything He desires.

True you could say God does not force men to do His will, but He certainly has the power to change a man's will so that it is in accordance with His own will. Witness Saul's conversion to Paul.

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires thelo all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

KJV: Who will have <thelo> all men to be saved
NASB: who desires <thelo> all men to be saved
Yes God desires all men to be saved.

Quote:
Yet, we know that not all will be saved.
There were some that Luke referred to who refused the will of God.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will boule of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
Jesus declared that many follow the path of destruction – refusing the counsel (will) of God.

Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

The free will choice of man is proclaimed in many places in the New Testament with regard to salvation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
This is where you have gone off course.
1. You assume "we know all will not be saved". Quoting Matt 7:13 does not prove that some will not be saved, for it does not say that. Nor does Luke 7:30.
2. Free will is not the all-powerful force you believe it to be, for no man's will is truly "free". We are only "free" to choose what we desire. We all desire to sin until God opens our eyes and reveals His way. Then we will desire to follow Him. Again witness Saul's conversion to Paul.

Quote:
You can't use this verse anymore. It dosn't mean what you emtoionally impose into the text. It has nothing to do with the divine prophetic will of God that all men become saved. This is how false doctrines are spread.
Sorry we have a different view.Moderator cut: insult Be well...

Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-05-2010 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Legoman, this isn't up for debate with me. The text disproves whether you like it or not, no matter how you want to spin it....you can't build a doctrine off the text that doesn't support it.
It renders it false, as it has. This has nothing to do with what I believe or want, the text overrides me, you, or anyone else.
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:17 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,442,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman, this isn't up for debate with me. The text disproves whether you like it or not, no matter how you want to spin it....you can't build a doctrine off the text that doesn't support it.
It renders it false, as it has. This has nothing to do with what I believe or want, the text overrides me, you, or anyone else.
LOL ok.

IMHO You are assuming your interpretation is what the text actually says.

But you didn't clarify what you think it all means with respect to God getting what He wants: Does God want people to burn in hell for eternity, or is He just frustrated for eternity that He did not achieve His ideal goal, or is there some other option? I'm honestly trying to understand your view here on whether God is happy about the outcome of His plan or not.

Peace out...
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:25 PM
 
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Does God desire all mankind to be saved?

Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"

Dear Sciotamicks, where in the Old Testament was any animal or human ransomed but not freed?

You say my understanding of 1 Timothy 2:4-6 has no foundation. Yet the foundation is Christ's ransom of alll mankind. All mankind have been ransomed. That is the foundation as to why God will have all mankind to be saved.

How is that no foundation? It is rock solid to me, not built on sifting sands but the sure word of God.
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:57 PM
 
20,445 posts, read 15,817,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Since when is it alright to switch subjects like that?

THEY who LIVE are the same ALL (all humans live).
"Him who died on THEIR (the all he died for) behalf" is the same ALL he died for in the first part. There is no subject switch here.

The words in Blue that you added is not merited by the context or the verse alone. How can you not see that you are adding that in there?
To the contrary.

2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all (the entire human race) were dead (spiritually dead- separation from God).

2 Cor. 5:15 and He died for all (the entire human race), that they who live (not referring to physical life but to those who are born again through faith in Christ-spiritually alive) should not live for themselves , but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.



Christ died and rose again for everyone. But only those members of the human race who believe in Christ for salvation are born again and thus spiritually alive. The passage is not talking about physical life. Therefore, having been born again through faith in Christ who died and rose for them, the believer should put Christ first in his life. Christ died for everyone, but only those who have been born again can appreciate what it means to live for Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (all of humanity) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him (only those members of the human race who of their own free will place their faith in Christ) should not perish but have eternal life.

Regarding 2 Cor. 5:14 C. I. Scofield wrote...

(5:14) All believers are regarded by God as having died with Christ. (Rom. 6:6). We must, therefore, count upon this as being so, and live accordingly. (see Rom. 6:11, note).

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for 2 Cor. 5:14, p. 1256.)


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old self (the old sin nature) was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; 7) for he who has died (retroactive and current positional truth-see the links already provided) is freed from sin.

Those who die without Christ die in their sins...

John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (the word 'He' is not found in the original), you shall die in your sins.''
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