U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-04-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
Reputation: 420

Advertisements

Guys,

You do misunderstand the text. You do impose something that just isn't there. Your interjection of scriptures for support into this is poor eisegesis to say the least. You want the text to say this, but it says that...that's it. It doesn't matter what we want to believe or believe, the text contradicts that, and so thus, it renders your idea of what it says, in error. Man chooses against God, that is his nature, and will always be so, unless one believes in Christ, who has victory.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:04 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That is an unscriptural term "eternity past." What happened? Did that eternity end and will another eternity begin? LOL!
Eternity past. Reference to eternity before time began. Eternity future. Reference to eternity after human history ends.



Quote:
You don't really believe what you wrote in the first paragraph because you believe everyone has a free will and a choice to make if they will be saved or not.
"It is not of him who is willing . . . but of God" (Romans 9)
Romans 9:16 means that man can't do anything for his salvation. God does all the work. There are numerous verses in the New Testament that state that man must believe or have faith in Christ in order to be saved. Faith is not a work. There is no merit in faith. The merit is in the object of faith. Jesus Christ.

Quote:
God either gives grace to be believing or He does not. God either opens eyes or He does not. God either opens understanding to the gospel or He does not. God uses Satan to blind humanity. If eternal torment is true God is the one who should be eternally tormented for keeping people from believing. Good thing there is no such thing as eternal torment!
God's grace is extended to the entire human race. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

God allows those who reject the truth to be deceived. To those who seek the truth, God gives understanding.

God does not prevent anyone from leaving this life without believing in Christ if they want to believe in Him.

John 6:40 ''For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

2 Tim. 2:3-4 (The passage that universalists have no understanding of.) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Eternal torment: Revelation 20:10; Matthew 25:41,46.



Quote:
A better analogy is this: God is in charge of His universe and He has chosen just so many people for eonian life. So He says I choose you, you, you, and you.
God doesn't give eonian life, He gives eternal life and He gives it to all who come to Him through Christ.

Quote:
That doesn't make sense that He chose certain people He knew would believe in Christ. The truth is, He chose certain people TO BE IN CHRIST before the disruption of the world.

Eph 1:4 "according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world (eternity past) that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

God chose all who He knew in His foreknowledge would believe in Christ for salvation. More specifically it refers to believers in the dispensation of the church.

From The People's New Testament...

Chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. This does not affirm that God chose some individuals and rejected others, but that before the world was, before there was Jew or Gentile, God chose to have a people for Himself, the whole Church of Christ, a covenant people confined to no one earthly race.

Ephesians 1 People's New Testament


From Wesley's Notes on the Bible...

1:4 As he hath chosen us- Both Jew and Gentiles, whom he foreknew as believing in Christ.

Ephesians 1 Wesley's Notes on the Bible

As I said, God knew from the recesses of eternity past, before the foundation of the world who would believe in Christ, and knowing this, He chose them.


Quote:
God doesn't just see the future, He makes the future happen by declaring it to be so.

Isa 46:10 "Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
That's right. God's eternal decree renders certain all things that are. God sovereignly decreed that man would have free will and that all of man's decisions, even those that are contrary to His will, would certainly happen.

The Doctrine of The Divine Decrees. Part 4... - Tree of Life - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


Quote:
Rom 12:3 For I am saying, through the grace which is given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to be overweening, beyond what your disposition must be, but to be of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith."
In Rom 12:3, faith doesn't refer to saving faith. It has to do with the temporary spiritual gifts that existed before the written cannon of scripture was completed.

From the People's New Testament...

12:3 Through the grace given to me. The grace to him, specially, was that of apostleship. See Ro 1:5 15:15 1 Co 3:10.

The measure of faith. That measure of faith that would enable one to exercise spiritual gifts. Ro 12:4-8 show that this is Paul's meaning. It is not the ordinary faith that saves the soul, but the extraordinary faith which was accompanied in the first century by supernatural gifts that was meant.

Romans 12 People's New Testament


Quote:
Eph 2:8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,

Phi 1:29 "for to you it is graciously granted, for Christ's sake, not only to be believing on Him, but to be suffering for His sake also,"

"believe" and "faith" use the same Greek word. "It is graciously granted to be having faith on Him." So we didn't have the faith prior to Him giving it to us.
Faith is a response to gospel hearing.

Romans 10:13 for ''WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'' 14) How then shall they cal upon Hin in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written. ''HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS?''

16) However, they did not all heed the glad tidings; for Isaiah says, ''LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?''17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


God provides the Gospel and the Holy Spirit makes the Gospel message understandable to the hearer of the message. Then it is up to the hearer to believe or not believe.


Quote:
More christian babble.
Christ died for all. All sins have been died for. God does not choose everyone in this life to believe for eonian life (life pertaining to the coming eons). God chooses just so many to believe. Believing does not make Christ die for us. Believing just allows us to rejoice in what He has done.
Christ died for all. All sins have been paid for. The issue in salvation is not sin. The issue in salvation is 'What think you of Christ?'

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

God doesn't place limits on how many will be saved in this life only to save them after death. God gives eternal life, not eonian life, to all who believe in Christ for salvation.

Quote:
Not really. We understand 1 Timothy 2:4-6 perfectly and don't need emotional subjective feelings about those passages.
Just how much does one need to read into this:

"God will have all mankind to be saved, because Christ ransomed all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). Just believe it. Don't explain it away.
Universalists do prefer their emotional subjectivity to the revealed word of God. You just got through saying at the beginning of this post that if eternal torment is true, then God should be eternally tormented for keeping people from believing. You have just judged God and superimposed your emotionalism and your standards on the God of the universe.

God doesn't keep anyone from believing. That smacks of Calvinism and is a heresy. And the Scriptures are abundantly clear that those who die without Christ go into the eternal fire.

And again, God DESIRES that all men be saved. He doesn't impose salvation on anyone. That is completely contrary to the reason God created man.

Now, I am not going to spend any more time going back and forth on this with you. You have set yourself against the truth and there's no getting through to you.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-04-2010 at 07:42 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,685,903 times
Reputation: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Thanks ILNC. Moderator cut: edoted Stand fast in the truth of God's word.
I agree.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-05-2010 at 11:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:40 PM
 
25,383 posts, read 24,162,302 times
Reputation: 23782
Am I confused? I thought the whole Lake of Fire thing was supposed to be after Jesus came back, and then all the people of hell would be cast into it and then they would cease to exist entirely.

Where does it say that at that point, the spirits will still survive and be tormented?

Again, forgive me if I'm incorrect about this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:49 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,647,071 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Am I confused? I thought the whole Lake of Fire thing was supposed to be after Jesus came back, and then all the people of hell would be cast into it and then they would cease to exist entirely.

Where does it say that at that point, the spirits will still survive and be tormented?

Again, forgive me if I'm incorrect about this.
At the point of physical death, the unbeliever goes to hades, in the compartment known as Torments. After the Millennium is over, the unbeliever is resurrected out of hades to stand before Christ at the Great White throne judgment of unbelievers as per Revelation 20:11-15. At that point he is then cast into the lake of fire where he spends all eternity in conscious torment.

Refer back to post #2 for the definition of 'destruction'.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2010, 07:59 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,405,821 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Guys,

You do misunderstand the text. You do impose something that just isn't there. Your interjection of scriptures for support into this is poor eisegesis to say the least. You want the text to say this, but it says that...that's it. It doesn't matter what we want to believe or believe, the text contradicts that, and so thus, it renders your idea of what it says, in error. Man chooses against God, that is his nature, and will always be so, unless one believes in Christ, who has victory.
sciotamicks, I want to know what you think.

Do you think God is frustrated for eternity because man "chooses against God", and thus spoils His desire and plan to save all men?

OR do you think God purposes and desires some man to be tormented for eternity because He knows that man will "choose against God", thus He is not frustrated for eternity because His desire for some to be tormented is fulfilled?

Can you answer these questions?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2010, 10:38 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,721,192 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
At the point of physical death, the unbeliever goes to hades, in the compartment known as Torments. After the Millennium is over, the unbeliever is resurrected out of hades to stand before Christ at the Great White throne judgment of unbelievers as per Revelation 20:11-15. At that point he is then cast into the lake of fire where he spends all eternity in conscious torment.

Refer back to post #2 for the definition of 'destruction'.
And then all believers are finally set free from those ridiculous commandments to love our enemies, and to overcome evil with good.

Believers will sing praises to God for the wise choice they made and for the free will that won out on the unbelievers' side.

Believers will all celebrate together in heaven and be oh-so-blissfully happy that they are in paradise forever, and that the others (even family and friends) simply got what they asked for.

And God will be content enough knowing His Son did the best He could and tried to save all, but only saved a few.

He will just accept that even though His will was that all would be saved, that He'll never get what He really wanted. Maybe He'll sigh and say, "Oh well....I tried."

Right, Mike?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2010, 09:19 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
At the point of physical death, the unbeliever goes to hades, in the compartment known as Torments. After the Millennium is over, the unbeliever is resurrected out of hades to stand before Christ at the Great White throne judgment of unbelievers as per Revelation 20:11-15. At that point he is then cast into the lake of fire where he spends all eternity in conscious torment.

Refer back to post #2 for the definition of 'destruction'.
Actually, at the point of death some go to the pig farm (note the prodigal son who died and went to the pig farm Luke 15:15).

later he came back to life and into the loving embrace of his father:
Luke 15:24.

Do they have pig farms on the good or bad side of Hades, Mike?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-05-2010, 09:22 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
And then all believers are finally set free from those ridiculous commandments to love our enemies, and to overcome evil with good.

Believers will sing praises to God for the wise choice they made and for the free will that won out on the unbelievers' side.

Believers will all celebrate together in heaven and be oh-so-blissfully happy that they are in paradise forever, and that the others (even family and friends) simply got what they asked for.

And God will be content enough knowing His Son did the best He could and tried to save all, but only saved a few.

He will just accept that even though His will was that all would be saved, that He'll never get what He really wanted. Maybe He'll sigh and say, "Oh well....I tried."

Right, Mike?
Not only that, what assurance do believers in ET get if God can't pull off what He wants when He wants to save all mankind but Satan is (according to their paradigm) far wiser and far more powerful than God for he gets his billions but God gets a few. What if God can't keep the few He got?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top