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Old 05-04-2010, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,419,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
God has more power than the will of man or the devil but he is gracous to give man and the devil that option.... The devil turned once and God rejected him. Man was given the option to rule of the earth with him or by him self with out him......but with the grace of Jesus Man is given the option to be saved from damnation thoughout Man life......Still God power is supernatural and far more powerful than the devils natural power and mans carnal power.......Glory to God.........
If what you say is true then it should be clear in scripture... where does it say that God wills all men to have a choice? I only find God wills all men to be saved.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:33 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,266,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Sinners... Because they decide their own fate.

I find it amusing that sinners have all the power while the Godly are slaves to God.



Anyone who says that by rejecting God you thwart God's will that all are saved is... IMO... confused as to who is more powerful...

No one and nothing is more powerful than God. Of course God could compel or force non-belivers to love and accept Him, after a brief stint in a flaming pit; right? Because God doesn't have an ego; right?

God could do whatever He desired. What He desires is our willingness to freely love and accept Him. God created the very parameters He chose to work within. He chose to permit His creation to have options, to freely choose how to answer His call. It does not make Him any less powerful. It shows the magnitude of His love, that He loves us so much He'll honor our heart's desire... whatever that may be.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:56 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,266,702 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If what you say is true then it should be clear in scripture... where does it say that God wills all men to have a choice? I only find God wills all men to be saved.
This wasn't directed to me, but I have an answer for you, as my reasoning causes you to have the same issue:

Genesis 2 The account of Adam in the garden. God created Adam in His image. God gave Adam a directive that called for Adam to exercise choice -- eat from all the trees except one and live or eat from the forbidden tree and "surely die". This implies choice. If Adam was never to have a choice, God wouldn't have created the parameters that way.

John 3:16 - whosoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. Again, implies choice. It doesn't say everyone will believe but only whosoever (chooses) believe

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" -- believe and not believe = choice.

John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." -- everyone who does look implies that there will be those who don't look = choice.

1 John 5:12 - He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. -- this clearly shows either you have Jesus or you don't = choice.

Revelation 3:20 - Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. -- this is figurative language to illustrate a point. Jesus knocks on the door of our heart/mind/spirit. Who is it that opens the door? Jesus? No. It is us. We are the ones who answer the knock. Those that answer the door, invite Jesus into their heart/mind/spirit dine with Jesus (eternal life). This clearly shows the choice is ours to answer the knock or not.

Again, this does not diminish the power of God/Christ. Yes, his will is that all come to salvation. Yet, not all will. This is according to the parameters designed by God that He abides by. Love is not forced or compelled. God gives His love freely and it therefore must be freely chosen.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,695,808 times
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Sounds like a petty fellow.
Wow. What do you think God desires/wants?
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:53 PM
 
25,664 posts, read 24,346,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Wow. What do you think God desires/wants?
I don't think it's petty to want one's children to say, "Wow, Mom/Dad, you're the shizzle."

OTOH, I personally don't throw my children into a lake of fire for not saying it. But that withstanding...I don't see that wanting to be acknowledged is a petty thing.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:19 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,735,102 times
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Originally Posted by CantWait2Leave View Post
Wow. What do you think God desires/wants?
If a god "wants," he can't be a god - well not the all-powerful, all-complete god Christians talk about.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:23 PM
 
25,664 posts, read 24,346,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
If a god "wants," he can't be a god - well not the all-powerful, all-complete god Christians talk about.
Why? The Bible (what I know of it! Feel like I have to keep making that disclaimer) speaks over and over again of God having emotions...anger, pleasure, etc.

Why would it be impossible for something that has complete power over another thing (in this case, the earth) to want something? Nobody's saying he needs it. Obviously something that's all-powerful doesn't "need," per se.

But "want," well, that's another thing.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:37 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,735,102 times
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Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
Why? The Bible (what I know of it! Feel like I have to keep making that disclaimer) speaks over and over again of God having emotions...anger, pleasure, etc.

Why would it be impossible for something that has complete power over another thing (in this case, the earth) to want something? Nobody's saying he needs it. Obviously something that's all-powerful doesn't "need," per se.

But "want," well, that's another thing.

Yes, the Bible says so and the god in that Bible resembles the humans who created him as opposed to the other way around. That is fine, but to (on the other hand) claim he is complete, I reckon there is nothing he should be in want of because by definition, he would NOT be complete.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,419,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
This wasn't directed to me, but I have an answer for you, as my reasoning causes you to have the same issue:

Genesis 2 The account of Adam in the garden. God created Adam in His image. God gave Adam a directive that called for Adam to exercise choice -- eat from all the trees except one and live or eat from the forbidden tree and "surely die". This implies choice. If Adam was never to have a choice, God wouldn't have created the parameters that way.
That is my point... what a choice.. Obviously Adam didn't believe God.

Quote:
John 3:16 - whosoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. Again, implies choice. It doesn't say everyone will believe but only whosoever (chooses) believe

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" -- believe and not believe = choice.

John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." -- everyone who does look implies that there will be those who don't look = choice.

1 John 5:12 - He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. -- this clearly shows either you have Jesus or you don't = choice.
All these show is that if you look to the Son you can know God and the son (Eternal Life according to Jesus; John 17)

Quote:
Revelation 3:20 - Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. -- this is figurative language to illustrate a point. Jesus knocks on the door of our heart/mind/spirit. Who is it that opens the door? Jesus? No. It is us. We are the ones who answer the knock. Those that answer the door, invite Jesus into their heart/mind/spirit dine with Jesus (eternal life). This clearly shows the choice is ours to answer the knock or not.
And what if you don't knock? What if you don't believe? Adam didn't believe God would have him cease to exist or why would he eat the fruit anyway? Paul was shown mercy BECAUSE of his unbelief. So is NOT believing a choice in itself or is it that if you don't believe you are automatically counted as having chosen the opposite (not knowing God and his son...).

Quote:
Again, this does not diminish the power of God/Christ. Yes, his will is that all come to salvation. Yet, not all will. This is according to the parameters designed by God that He abides by. Love is not forced or compelled. God gives His love freely and it therefore must be freely chosen.
You cannot be in UNbelief and freely chose between two things you don't believe in. So how then can someone have the free will to choose? Why would God send his son to die for the lost, the ungodly, if they have already chosen their fate?

I believe it does diminish the power of God. If God can't save the Sinner then how can we say he can save anyone?

1 Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

Mark 2:17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,726,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
It shows the magnitude of His love, that He loves us so much He'll honor our heart's desire... whatever that may be.
Does that mean you don't believe in a literal hell/lake of fire? No one's desire would be to burn forever.
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