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Old 05-11-2010, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
i think your mixing your limitations with your freedom-there are limits to what we can do but we arew free within those limits,to do what we choose,.... also you still may have the will to go the way you want but that dosent mean you can do it



exactly-YOU make the choice,YOU chose to get in the car,YOU started it and drove down whichevdr way YOU thought was best,the irrational part was trying to go in the straight line,which was physically immpossible,just like i mentioned in the previous post about flying into outer space,there are limits to what threse body's can do,but once we are herte we are faced with choices,and it is YOU that must choose,so how is that not free will,if God is making us do everything then wouldnt He make us be doing perfect things,there would be no murders and we would all be free(spiritually that is)



i dont get you there,if God was punishing us for something that He made us do then i think that is absurd.
and i didnt realy get what you meant here,what do you mean bye "God punishing you for something He gave you"and what do you mean it was "never free"
No, you missed the point. I don't have the choice to go the way I want and therefore it affects the choices I do make. So the Choices are NOT the ones I want to make even though I make them.

Again FREEWILL is fiction.

WILL-AT-COST is how God changes us to His Wonderful Children.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:24 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,944,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If you believe in ET, isn't that infinitely worse a threat than putting a gun to your head?
what ET got to do with it,we are talking about free will.whether xtraterrestials exist or not dosent mean,well anything about free will,and i didnt mention anything about ET's so i am a bit confused what you mean here

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw1776 View Post
Of course i don't believe in ET, but that is what the church uses to proselytize isn't it?
which church?,there are millions of them

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw177614134720
The fact is even though i don't believe in ET, the only other option to believing and serving God is personal destruction, in that this is what sin ultimately leads to.
now i am confused?what happens if you do beleive in ET.
whats your options here-
why is beleiving and serving God personal destruction,and why is it the only other option,regardless if you beleive in ET or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw177614134720
Eventually the understanding of this and of Gods unconditional love and grace is what causes people to truly and willingly repent, that is to say, when God gives us this understanding.
........but is it understanding alone that gets you there or is to act out of our own FREE WILL out of this consioussness,to BE love and act freely inside ,and at the same time SERVING our Lord,our will,will be in line with the Will of the Supreme,Im sure He's goin to be wanting to do some pretty cool amazing stuff with us,who knows what that Dimension is all about,and I think whatever is goin on it we wont be refusing it and we shall be DESIRING it for eternity,and it will be of our own choosing,we CHOOSE TO SERVE and its that simple and once you go back you never have to return.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw177614134720
The fact is all rivers lead to the sea, one way or another, and the sea is Christ our lord and his work on the cross which is for the salvation of the world. Eventually God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, either in this life or after the resurrection. Its not a matter of our choosing to know, it is a matter of when it is revealed to us by God in our hearts and minds.

According to scriptures, the carnal man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit of God, they are foolishness to him. So a carnal man is bound to sin and cannot choose to truly believe something that he cannot comprehend and thinks to be foolishness. He can choose to provide lip service in order to escape persecution or in order to escape what he is told to be the consequences of unbelief or even to be a part of a club in order to reap personal earthly benefits, but he cant choose to truly believe it(the gospel, i.e the things of the spirit of God).


Amen ...
have you ever tought why God chooses certain people to suffer more than others,if this was our onkly and first life wouldnt God givre everyone the same chance in life,.............reincarnation-its the only answer
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:36 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,944,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No, you missed the point. I don't have the choice to go the way I want and therefore it affects the choices I do make. So the Choices are NOT the ones I want to make even though I make them.

Again FREEWILL is fiction.

WILL-AT-COST is how God changes us to His Wonderful Children.
but theres no point in choosing what is immpossible-that would be irrational,God gives you loads of options ,the choice is yours....you'r desire[
if we didnt have free will there wouldnt be any murderers,God would have us perfect,if He made the choice for us,then His choice would be to come to Him because He knows that thats what makes us truly hapy serving Him.but guess what there are very few people who are actually pure,im talking miniscule,it is because of our desires that keeps us from accheiving it.its not enough just knowing,you have to follow--kno-ones gonna force you,not even God because it is your "free will"that allows us to follow,we gain more freedom when we are serving,internally,freedom from the mind,which is always wandering here and there, always busy desiring the senses and other stuff.

so no!! your right!...
we dont have free will not until we free the mind from fear and illusion and ignorance,and untill we do only then can we be truly free,but only if we choose,

"for one who has controled the mind,the mind becomes the best freind,
and for one who cant control it then it will become your worst enemy"B_G
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,676,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
but theres no point in choosing what is immpossible-that would be irrational,God gives you loads of options ,the choice is yours....you'r desire[
if we didnt have free will there wouldnt be any murderers,God would have us perfect,if He made the choice for us,then His choice would be to come to Him because He knows that thats what makes us truly hapy serving Him.but guess what there are very few people who are actually pure,im talking miniscule,it is because of our desires that keeps us from accheiving it.its not enough just knowing,you have to follow--kno-ones gonna force you,not even God because it is your "free will"that allows us to follow,we gain more freedom when we are serving,internally,freedom from the mind,which is always wandering here and there, always busy desiring the senses and other stuff.

so no!! your right!...
we dont have free will not until we free the mind from fear and illusion and ignorance,and untill we do only then can we be truly free,but only if we choose,

"for one who has controled the mind,the mind becomes the best freind,
and for one who cant control it then it will become your worst enemy"B_G
What is impossible? - See your will isn't Free, is it. It comes with impossibilities by your own confession.

Clay doesn't it mold itself. But that is what FREEWILL preaches. It preaches that the Clay molds itself.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:06 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,734,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
what ET got to do with it,we are talking about free will.whether xtraterrestials exist or not dosent mean,well anything about free will,and i didnt mention anything about ET's so i am a bit confused what you mean here
ET on this forum means "eternal torment" in a literal lake of fire, also known to some as hell.
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:19 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,250,268 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
what ET got to do with it,we are talking about free will.whether xtraterrestials exist or not dosent mean,well anything about free will,and i didnt mention anything about ET's so i am a bit confused what you mean here

I apologize, i thought you understood the terminology i was using. Et means Eternal Torment. That is to say eternal damnation.

Eternal Torment is used by fundamentalist orthodox traditional Christianity, among other fundamentalist forms of religion, to to subvert the thought of the masses and subject them to indoctrination and to control them by using fear of everlasting suffering after they die if they do not comply with the dogma of said religion.


Quote:
which church?there are millions of them
All fundamentalist orthodox traditional Christian Churches ...

Quote:
now i am confused?what happens if you do beleive in ET.
whats your options here-
The other options are believing in Anihilation/conditional immortality or Universal reconciliation(UR)/the restitution of all things ...

Quote:
why is beleiving and serving God personal destruction,and why is it the only other option,regardless if you beleive in ET or not.
Living a life of sin is personal destruction, because that is what the nature of evil and sin is, destruction.

Believing in and serving God is eventually the only real option, because eventually it will not just be a matter of faith anymore when all people come face to face with him. They will not have the option nor the ability to refuse or reject him at that time, because when they are in his divine presence, all their deceptions and delusions will literally be destroyed.

Quote:
........but is it understanding alone that gets you there or is to act out of our own FREE WILL out of this consioussness,to BE love and act freely inside ,and at the same time SERVING our Lord,our will,will be in line with the Will of the Supreme,Im sure He's goin to be wanting to do some pretty cool amazing stuff with us,who knows what that Dimension is all about,and I think whatever is goin on it we wont be refusing it and we shall be DESIRING it for eternity,and it will be of our own choosing,we CHOOSE TO SERVE and its that simple and once you go back you never have to return.
The reason not everyone believes in God or in the things of the spirit is because they do not have the option to ... They are bound to sin and their carnal natures cannot even comprehend the things of the spirit of God. Only when they have been freed by the intervention of the spirit and made to understand the things of the spirit will they comprehend and believe in God. Its not a matter of personal choice, its a matter of divine revelation and the transformation it causes within the individual to whom the truth is revealed by the spirit of God.

Quote:
have you ever tought why God chooses certain people to suffer more than others,if this was our onkly and first life wouldnt God givre everyone the same chance in life,.............reincarnation-its the only answer.
I believe that God chooses certain people to suffer more than others in order to make a point. Only that point will not be fully understood until all things in the ages are said and done and then Gods perfect will is manifest on earth even as it is in heaven. For now we see as in a darkened glass, but then we shall see God face to face, knowing him even as we are now known by him.

Different people have different dispensations according to the purpose and plan of God in the ages. They are what God made them to be, and eventually everyone will thank God for the part he gave them to play in time. Everyone and everything that happens is absolutely necessary in order to bring about Gods will in creation. The toe is just as important as the finger, and the leg as the arm. They are all necessary, and we must act according to the purpose of our various designs to fulfill the purposes of the universal body politic.

Everything happens for a reason, and God is in control and has made a season for all things to happen in their own time ...

Ecc 3:1-14
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-11-2010 at 11:40 PM..
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:57 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,944,034 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I apologize, i thought you understood the terminology i was using. Et means Eternal Torment. That is to say eternal damnation.

Eternal Torment is used by fundamentalist orthodox traditional Christianity, among other fundamentalist forms of religion, to to subvert the thought of the masses and subject them to indoctrination and to control them by using fear of everlasting suffering after they die if they do not comply with the dogma of said religion.


All fundamentalist orthodox traditional Christian Churches ...

The other options are believing in Anihilation/conditional immortality or Universal reconciliation(UR)/the restitution of all things ...

Living a life of sin is personal destruction, because that is what the nature of evil and sin is, destruction.

Believing in and serving God is eventually the only real option, because eventually it will not just be a matter of faith anymore when all people come face to face with him. They will not have the option nor the ability to refuse or reject him at that time, because when they are in his divine presence, all their deceptions and delusions will literally be destroyed.

The reason not everyone believes in God or in the things of the spirit is because they do not have the option to ... They are bound to sin and their carnal natures cannot even comprehend the things of the spirit of God. Only when they have been freed by the intervention of the spirit and made to understand the things of the spirit will they comprehend and believe in God. Its not a matter of personal choice, its a matter of divine revelation and the transformation it causes within the individual to whom the truth is revealed by the spirit of God.

I believe that God chooses certain people to suffer more than others in order to make a point. Only that point will not be fully understood until all things in the ages are said and done and then Gods perfect will is manifest on earth even as it is in heaven. For now we see as in a darkened glass, but then we shall see God face to face, knowing him even as we are now known by him.

Different people have different dispensations according to the purpose and plan of God in the ages. They are what God made them to be, and eventually everyone will thank God for the part he gave them to play in time. Everyone and everything that happens is absolutely necessary in order to bring about Gods will in creation. The toe is just as important as the finger, and the leg as the arm. They are all necessary, and we must act according to the purpose of our various designs to fulfill the purposes of the universal body politic.

Everything happens for a reason, and God is in control and has made a season for all things to happen in their own time ...

Ecc 3:1-14
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
thanks for clearing that up...."ET phone home" lol ,geez i thought yas were all gone mad around here,phew!

yeah i dont think God would have a child raped and murdered just to make a point,i have trouble beleiving that,that would be hell for a child.........no there is punishhment going on here,their is karma,if you think about it logically life would not be fair if God was just picking random people to suffer just to make a few points,when their are always other ways to learn,suffering is pointless unless its to teach someone a lesson,so they dont offend again,just like someone being thrown into prison,but just like all prison sentences,suffering is temporary,and once a sentence is served then that particular individual is once again free.just like a person lets say in africa,starving that person could have been a very wealthy person in a previous life and had an opportunity to save starving children and didnt,now they must feel what its like to exist in that circumstance,but once they leave the body then that temporary existence is over,and they can live without the burden that was once on their heads'.but to think that they were randomly picked to suffer to make apoint dosent realy make sense?
"for he who is first in this world will be last in the next and he who is last will be first"-Jesus
"what you reap so shall you sow"-Jesus
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Old 05-12-2010, 04:07 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,944,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
What is impossible? - See your will isn't Free, is it. It comes with impossibilities by your own confession.

Clay doesn't it mold itself. But that is what FREEWILL preaches. It preaches that the Clay molds itself.
your missing the point--you have free will within the limitations of the body,which i already explained.

you cant go in a straight line becuse their are buildings in the way,to try and do that you would have to be dumber than a stick,it would be irrational to choose such a root,so you have another 200 options tom choose from,the choice is yours-your "free will" acts and you get there
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,154,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
what ET got to do with it,we are talking about free will.whether xtraterrestials exist or not dosent mean,well anything about free will,and i didnt mention anything about ET's so i am a bit confused what you mean here


which church?,there are millions of them


now i am confused?what happens if you do beleive in ET.
whats your options here-
why is beleiving and serving God personal destruction,and why is it the only other option,regardless if you beleive in ET or not.

........but is it understanding alone that gets you there or is to act out of our own FREE WILL out of this consioussness,to BE love and act freely inside ,and at the same time SERVING our Lord,our will,will be in line with the Will of the Supreme,Im sure He's goin to be wanting to do some pretty cool amazing stuff with us,who knows what that Dimension is all about,and I think whatever is goin on it we wont be refusing it and we shall be DESIRING it for eternity,and it will be of our own choosing,we CHOOSE TO SERVE and its that simple and once you go back you never have to return.




have you ever tought why God chooses certain people to suffer more than others,if this was our onkly and first life wouldnt God givre everyone the same chance in life,.............reincarnation-its the only answer
Dobeable,
Your post about ET was TOO funny! Nothing at all against you, of course; the misunderstanding was hilarious! What church is ET in?
Well, whatever church he's in, I'd say God loves him, too! So he'll be ok in the end!...

On a different note,
you asked me if it was me who chose God.
I would have to say both yes and no here, because although there was an action to draw closer to Him, and that could be said to be on my part, the desire I had was given to me BY HIM, so that is why I believe no one can indeed come to Him unless HE causes it.
Mind you, there were no preachers or evangelists around to try to convince me or make me say a sinner's prayer. NO. It was HE who gave me a desire, even though no one was around.
It's not that He "forces Himself" on anyone. He IS the force, and when you feel it, you are drawn like a magnet. It's not forced, like someone can force another person to do something, maybe through threat of violence or enticing.
God doesn't work like that. He is pure Love, and until He decides to reveal Himself to anyone, we cannot really understand Him as we should.

That's why ongoing revelation and anointing is so important. We all tend to lose focus until He reveals Himself again. We all have the Word in us, but not abundance of anointing.
Even the early Christians we filled with the Spirit more than once, so we see that it's a presence that descends and lifts. It's not constant, at least not at this time.
I believe someday His presence will be continually revealed within us. This is heaven.

Just some thoughts here as I write..

Blessings,
Brian
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,676,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
your missing the point--you have free will within the limitations of the body,which i already explained.

you cant go in a straight line becuse their are buildings in the way,to try and do that you would have to be dumber than a stick,it would be irrational to choose such a root,so you have another 200 options tom choose from,the choice is yours-your "free will" acts and you get there
Yes, I can't go in a straight line because there are COSTS! - Hence the will is NOT free. You see it is COSTS that determines our WILL!!
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