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Old 05-12-2010, 08:20 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Yes, I can't go in a straight line because there are COSTS! - Hence the will is NOT free. You see it is COSTS that determines our WILL!!
you cant go in a straight line because its not possible you may still have the will/desire to go that way,but that dosent mean you can,so you have to use your free will to go the right way.or you can just be stibborn and stay where you are and beleive that the grocery store will come to you,but that wont get you anywhere.
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Old 05-12-2010, 08:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Dobeable,

Your post about ET was TOO funny! Nothing at all against you, of course; the misunderstanding was hilarious! What church is ET in?
Well, whatever church he's in, I'd say God loves him, too! So he'll be ok in the end!...

On a different note,
you asked me if it was me who chose God.
I would have to say both yes and no here, because although there was an action to draw closer to Him, and that could be said to be on my part, the desire I had was given to me BY HIM, so that is why I believe no one can indeed come to Him unless HE causes it.
Mind you, there were no preachers or evangelists around to try to convince me or make me say a sinner's prayer. NO. It was HE who gave me a desire, even though no one was around.
It's not that He "forces Himself" on anyone. He IS the force, and when you feel it, you are drawn like a magnet. It's not forced, like someone can force another person to do something, maybe through threat of violence or enticing.
God doesn't work like that. He is pure Love, and until He decides to reveal Himself to anyone, we cannot really understand Him as we should.

That's why ongoing revelation and anointing is so important. We all tend to lose focus until He reveals Himself again. We all have the Word in us, but not abundance of anointing.
Even the early Christians we filled with the Spirit more than once, so we see that it's a presence that descends and lifts. It's not constant, at least not at this time.
I believe someday His presence will be continually revealed within us. This is heaven.

Just some thoughts here as I write..

Blessings,
Brian

i wonder was ET a universalist since he traveled the universe and stuff

yeah i see where your comin from,our very nature is to be attracted to His energy,that's why Krishna's name mean's All Attractive,everything is attracted to Him,Christ-Krishna,its the same name realy,in fact the sanscrit word for Christ is Krista,Christ consioussness/Krishna consioussness-its the same thing-and i can see how Jesus teachings are so familiar with the teachings and mood of the Vaishnavas.its good to find some common ground.

i also beleive its true that out of God's own causless mercy only,does He reveal Himself,sometimes we catch a glimps of Him in our heart's and even that can destroy any darkness,and make the individual feel enlightened,but as you said it is only when we have got to the stage when we are in constant bliss and union with God, will we be truly free..i dont think there is many who have reached that stage yet,but i dont think its immpossible either.

th vedas teach that God exist's inside the heart's(soul)of every living entity,so yes heaven/bliss/transcendental ecstatic love of God exist right there inside you

about the free will thingy,i still think that we still have it although God is the Supreme controller, He is just giving us our desires,what we desire will effect the outcome and even though God knows the outcome and knows what we all will choose, He still lets us live it out ,He intervenes every now and again too.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
thanks for clearing that up...."ET phone home" lol ,geez i thought yas were all gone mad around here,phew!

yeah i dont think God would have a child raped and murdered just to make a point,i have trouble beleiving that,that would be hell for a child.........no there is punishhment going on here,their is karma,if you think about it logically life would not be fair if God was just picking random people to suffer just to make a few points,when their are always other ways to learn,suffering is pointless unless its to teach someone a lesson,so they dont offend again,just like someone being thrown into prison,but just like all prison sentences,suffering is temporary,and once a sentence is served then that particular individual is once again free.just like a person lets say in africa,starving that person could have been a very wealthy person in a previous life and had an opportunity to save starving children and didnt,now they must feel what its like to exist in that circumstance,but once they leave the body then that temporary existence is over,and they can live without the burden that was once on their heads'.but to think that they were randomly picked to suffer to make apoint dosent realy make sense?
"for he who is first in this world will be last in the next and he who is last will be first"-Jesus
"what you reap so shall you sow"-Jesus
Well, according to the book of Job, the innocent suffer so that God can make a point. I understand if you choose not to accept what the book of Job has to say on the issue, but i believe in what the scritpures teach.

I also believe you reap what you so, in that one must suffer consequences in order to learn from mistakes as well, but was Christ innocent or did he deserve what he got? I also believe that those who suffer innocently will receive great rewards.

I don't believe in reincarnation but i understand your point and i admit that you may be right, i believe in reaping what one sows in either in this life or after the resurrection.

Thanks for your response ...



God bless ...
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,398,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
i wonder was ET a universalist since he traveled the universe and stuff

yeah i see where your comin from,our very nature is to be attracted to His energy,that's why Krishna's name mean's All Attractive,everything is attracted to Him,Christ-Krishna,its the same name realy,in fact the sanscrit word for Christ is Krista,Christ consioussness/Krishna consioussness-its the same thing-and i can see how Jesus teachings are so familiar with the teachings and mood of the Vaishnavas.its good to find some common ground.

i also beleive its true that out of God's own causless mercy only,does He reveal Himself,sometimes we catch a glimps of Him in our heart's and even that can destroy any darkness,and make the individual feel enlightened,but as you said it is only when we have got to the stage when we are in constant bliss and union with God, will we be truly free..i dont think there is many who have reached that stage yet,but i dont think its immpossible either.

th vedas teach that God exist's inside the heart's(soul)of every living entity,so yes heaven/bliss/transcendental ecstatic love of God exist right there inside you

about the free will thingy,i still think that we still have it although God is the Supreme controller, He is just giving us our desires,what we desire will effect the outcome and even though God knows the outcome and knows what we all will choose, He still lets us live it out ,He intervenes every now and again too.
Good post-
I disagree with the FREE part of free-will because as the other poster stated.. our will is not free, there is a cost for every choice which influences how we choose. Someone from another religion would have a different set of influences. For example, an unbeliever would not be compelled to choose God when they don't believe in God or hell..etc. Their choice is based on what they know to be true whether or not it actually is true.

The other thing is:
Romans 9:16 (NIV)It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (NLT)So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

Paul seems to think that it is wholly God who decides who gets mercy, not humans.

Also, Paul states: For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

So from one passage to another we see that ALL men are given mercy because God has decided (or willed) that they are all equally disobedient and powerless.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Well, according to the book of Job, the innocent suffer so that God can make a point. I understand if you choose not to accept what the book of Job has to say on the issue, but i believe in what the scritpures teach.

I also believe you reap what you so, in that one must suffer consequences in order to learn from mistakes as well, but was Christ innocent or did he deserve what he got? I also believe that those who suffer innocently will receive great rewards.

I don't believe in reincarnation but i understand your point and i admit that you may be right, i believe in reaping what one sows in either in this life or after the resurrection.

Thanks for your response ...



God bless ...
thanks i appreciate that ironmaw,Id hat to get into a scrap with you anyway,if your anything like your name suggest's then i think i might be losin this one ......

but i think Jesus was different,He came to the world without sin,when we
enter this world we are already subjected to the laws of karma........thats why think people suffer and enjoy,differently.thats one of the reasons that i think reincarnation is very possible.

Jesus came straight from the spiritual universe,He was already pure entering this dimension.,,,.......

i wonder what it was like when He was around,what influence He had on people-can you imagine what vibe would be coming off Him,pure love of God.Christ consioussness.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Good post-
I disagree with the FREE part of free-will because as the other poster stated.. our will is not free, there is a cost for every choice which influences how we choose. Someone from another religion would have a different set of influences. For example, an unbeliever would not be compelled to choose God when they don't believe in God or hell..etc. Their choice is based on what they know to be true whether or not it actually is true.

The other thing is:
Romans 9:16 (NIV)It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 (NLT)So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

Paul seems to think that it is wholly God who decides who gets mercy, not humans.

Also, Paul states: For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

So from one passage to another we see that ALL men are given mercy because God has decided (or willed) that they are all equally disobedient and powerless.
i dont know i think we might be interpereting the word wrong or somethin-i dont see how we can have freedom without free will,whether we choose to follow a good path or not is entirly up to us,

although innevitably we all end up back home(spiritual universe) we do it in the end bye our own actions,actions in devotion thats how you attain God,bye service,its the quickest way,renunciation alone cant even do it,its Love of God and acting out of that love,as one poster said(ahigherway) -its not easy to attain,it comes and go's sometimes but when you suss out life and your existence and relationship with God it can become constant.........i could go into a bit deeper but im pretty tired
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,319 times
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I had a closing thought to add about free will, wether it exists or not:

If it's true that being a Christian means being/doing like Christ, then we need only look at CHRIST's free will:

- "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
- "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (I wonder if Jesus lost anything?)
- "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
- "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
- "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
- ""
And finally, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

So maybe the real question is not, do we have free will, but, "whose will is the one that counts??"

Blessings to all,
Brian
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 879,579 times
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We DO have a will, just look at a child from the time it can crawl. But how often do we allow it to follow it's will?

Until we teacjh and shape a child's will, amid much resistance and rebellion, they don't begin to understand the concept of sharing and mercy and grace. Even when we're older we rarely can do what we REALLY want to do. And many times we find that IF we can do what we want to do, when we do it, it wasn't as much fun or as fulfilling as we thought it would be.

So I see no comfort in believing in free will. We have a limited number of choices in life, all determined by our family, environment, intelligence, sometimes 'luck' etc. And I know, for myself, the more choices I have in a situation, the harder it is to make a decision.

I believe God has set us up with the choices that will steer us in the direction He wants us to take in order to learn what He has planned for us to learn in this lifetime, sometimes we are the ones who teach others what NOT to do and how NOT to be, and sometimes we are the good influence.

But that's just How I See things at this point in my life.

Peace and wishing all a marvelous Sunday.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:18 AM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
I had a closing thought to add about free will, wether it exists or not:

If it's true that being a Christian means being/doing like Christ, then we need only look at CHRIST's free will:

- "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
- "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (I wonder if Jesus lost anything?)
- "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
- "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
- "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
- ""
And finally, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

So maybe the real question is not, do we have free will, but, "whose will is the one that counts??"

Blessings to all,
Brian
now i'm getting a clearer pictuyre of what yur tryin to say,and what Jesus was talking about there was definitly DEVOTION.that's what devotion is,it is giving up the desire for the senses and working purely for the self(in this case ,the bodily comforts and pleasures/material desires),but when one becomes attached to devotion then one no longer exist's for the self but for the cause of all causes(God consioussness)and will do whatever the will of the father demands.....................on the other hand we need to act,we are the ones who need to choose this,the option is always there,whether we decide to follow or not is up to us,thats why we have free will,but we can choose to follow the will of our own desires or the desries of the Supreme Personality of Godhead-DEVOTION.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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That's the way I see it also Scarletwren.
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