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Old 05-17-2010, 11:23 PM
 
Location: missouri
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Your contradiction is that you have been given a socially defined notion to an activity that is observed. Free will is a concept of the mind. It does not exist in the natural world (as there is no meaning in this world apart from mind). It is a concept that mind brings to certain activities in order to define them or make them observable and to regulate them. In the modern world this definition is needed to attribute behavior (legal, one man one vote, come to work that is centered around production and the machine on time, private property, I saved myself, etc) to the notion of the individual (also an evolving notion). This is a social construction that is brought into the various disciplines (philosophy, religion, law, politics, etc) to accomplish just that; so it is not an absolute reality but just an idea that is used to manage the society (even church). It is not viewed the way you view it by all peoples and at all times in history (the notion would be very different with a monarchy, dictatorship, theocracy, primitive tribe, etc). The contradiction happens when you bring your given view into contact with a predestination view (or some other antithesis). Biblically, or in the orthodox, or theologically conservative (one can't use any words nowadays with out much baggage) view, the bible is assumed to have the correct view (from god) and these socially constructed views (the most of what you have now) are fabricated with much error, so your contradiction is the result of your attempting a synthesis between error and "truth". A more liberal view is that the constructed notion is more of the "truth" (derived from a religious consciousness or some such concept) than what is assumed to be revealed by the god. So the contradiction is still there but the other way around (on which side you attribute "truth"). Philosophically one tries to reconcile the two sides (this is higher thought-to remain in the contradiction, or siding with one side and ignoring the other, is to be stuck in the "understanding"-as Hegel termed it, and lower thought). With good theology (very rare nowadays), one goes with what the god says (yes, these are constructions too, but good theology, as a social process, attempts to weed out the man constructions) despite what the constructions are-as social constructions derived purely from mind. Huh.....what was the question?
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,154,703 times
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It's a mysterious thing, this free will... Of course, we can't understand it all right now, but someday we will I think..!
Another strange question regarding free will is this: if it's true that man must make a "choice for Christ without any external influence (ie "free")," then we should not pray for God to save the lost, since that would require Him to "influence" them!..

So I tend to look at Saul's experience, since there we see that God "apprehends" people for His will. As I wrote earlier, I must say that it was God who began moving in my life, before I ever did; so in this sense, I must say that it was He who chose me, not vice versa. And I think that's the case for others, too, even if they don't see it that way.

Just a thought anyway,
Blessings of good to all,
Brian
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:15 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,154,703 times
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Another serious contradiction came to mind last night, when I read somewhere about soldiers with scripture on their guns. This is the contradiction (apart from the notion of "Christians who kill for Christ," which is the biggest contradiction of all):
If all men have free will to "accept Christ," then Christians IN PARTICULAR should in NO WAY be killing other people who may have the chance to "accept Jesus." Killing people means cutting short the lives of those who may have otherwise "chosen Christ" later on.
Unless of course, killing people is one's way of "praying for the lost."

We need to LOOK at what we are accepting as doctrine, folks!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,460,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Another serious contradiction came to mind last night, when I read somewhere about soldiers with scripture on their guns. This is the contradiction (apart from the notion of "Christians who kill for Christ," which is the biggest contradiction of all):
If all men have free will to "accept Christ," then Christians IN PARTICULAR should in NO WAY be killing other people who may have the chance to "accept Jesus." Killing people means cutting short the lives of those who may have otherwise "chosen Christ" later on.
Unless of course, killing people is one's way of "praying for the lost."

We need to LOOK at what we are accepting as doctrine, folks!

Blessings,
brian
Good point! I agree!
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,676,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Another serious contradiction came to mind last night, when I read somewhere about soldiers with scripture on their guns. This is the contradiction (apart from the notion of "Christians who kill for Christ," which is the biggest contradiction of all):
If all men have free will to "accept Christ," then Christians IN PARTICULAR should in NO WAY be killing other people who may have the chance to "accept Jesus." Killing people means cutting short the lives of those who may have otherwise "chosen Christ" later on.
Unless of course, killing people is one's way of "praying for the lost."

We need to LOOK at what we are accepting as doctrine, folks!

Blessings,
brian
Being a real Christian is being a pacifist in this world. For the Kingdom of God is not of this world.
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Old 06-21-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: missouri
1,179 posts, read 1,185,225 times
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A pacifist, as christian, is a guy who puts something above obedience; an ideology, ie, he is an idolater. If one is to protect the fatherless and widows, one sometimes needs to be violent-for everything that men do under the sun there is a time and season-even killing. You can not control your existence completely, no matter how much ideology you pile on your back. Pacifists are great in a perfect world, but someone has to be a man and accept the responsibility to kill from time to time in ours.
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Old 06-21-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,707,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Being a real Christian is being a pacifist in this world. For the Kingdom of God is not of this world.
Oh goodness..........
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Old 06-21-2010, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,324,435 times
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Shall we start from the beginning.......?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely - אָכֹל eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Free will began there.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,618,591 times
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Concerning "free will" - I believe everyone's will is bound by the sin nature UNTIL God chooses to make a person free. That is demonstrated by God hardening whom he will - such as Pharaoh. I can see why that notion bothers people who feel that they have to choose salvation. But Jesus said, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" and "No man can come to me except it be granted by the Father's will". These statements demonstrates God's complete sovereignty over ALL THINGS! He holds the power in His hand! Praise His glorious name!

Heartsong
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,460,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Shall we start from the beginning.......?

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely - אָכֹל eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Free will began there.
and ended in the next verse....you can have "free" will if the cost of one of the choices is a life you value..... That isn't exactly free... is it?

BTW... freely is not in the Hebrew... it is literally "eat eat"... you do know this right?
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