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Old 05-04-2010, 06:20 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,931,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Romans 8:29 settles the issue for me.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
***************
Foreknowledge is knowing who will chose God out of their own freewill. Our lives are like an open book before God. He knows what's on page one and what comes before The End-even before we write each page of the story of our lives.

God knows which of us will say yes. He doesn't make us say yes. People chose to respond to the call of the Lord.
so if God knows who's saying yes or no then why is sending people here knowing that they are going to say no-this question only has relevence if you beleive in eternal hell BTW or beleive that Jesus is the only way
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:30 PM
 
20,296 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Romans 8:29 settles the issue for me.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
***************
Foreknowledge is knowing who will chose God out of their own freewill. Our lives are like an open book before God. He knows what's on page one and what comes before The End-even before we write each page of the story of our lives.

God knows which of us will say yes. He doesn't make us say yes. People chose to respond to the call of the Lord.
This is exactly true. It is by the sovereign will of God that man has free will. The very principle of man's free will was established in the garden of Eden when God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there and gave Adam a command to not eat of it. This was to give Adam's free will something to work with. The entire issue with regard to man's volition is to demonstrate to all of creation, in view of the fact that God had sentenced Satan and the angels that rebelled with him to the lake of fire, that there are members of a lower creation than the angels (man) who would choose for Christ, and in so doing, demonstrate that the angels that revolted are without excuse, and that God is just in His sentencing of the fallen angels as well as unbelieving mankind to the eternal fire.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,263 posts, read 20,865,688 times
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[quote=ahigherway;14034863]But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why.[quote]Maybe it's your reasoning that's messed up. I'll address each of your points and ask that you consider my comments.

Quote:
1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
You're right. You can't possibly say that everyone has the "same opportunity."

Quote:
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
You're right again. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone born in 2nd century China had the same opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as the person born in 21st century America.

Quote:
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!
And here is where you're wrong -- for the simple reason that you are missing a piece of the puzzle. We are not resurrected at the instant following death. Our spirit leaves our body but continues to exist as a cognizant entity. It remains in that state until it is resurrected. Keep in mind that that could be hundreds or even thousands of years. It is during this post-mortal existance, after death but before the resurrection, that the playing field is leveled. All of the baggage we haul around with us during mortality -- we are, after all, all the products of our culture and environment -- will be shed, and we will be able to continue to learn, grow and, yes, "choose." We won't be standing in front of Jesus Christ, seeing Him face to face, but the person who died as a nine-year-old kid in an isolted African jungle back in 400 A.D. will have the opportunity to hear the same message that the 95-year-old man from Tulsa, Oklahoma heard taught from his youth. Once all have had that opportunity, and not until, God will call us before Him to be judged.

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-04-2010 at 09:05 PM..
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:25 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,720,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This is exactly true. It is by the sovereign will of God that man has free will. The very principle of man's free will was established in the garden of Eden when God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there and gave Adam a command to not eat of it. This was to give Adam's free will something to work with. The entire issue with regard to man's volition is to demonstrate to all of creation, in view of the fact that God had sentenced Satan and the angels that rebelled with him to the lake of fire, that there are members of a lower creation than the angels (man) who would choose for Christ, and in so doing, demonstrate that the angels that revolted are without excuse, and that God is just in His sentencing of the fallen angels as well as unbelieving mankind to the eternal fire.
Mike, do you think God planned from the beginning to torture and burn people in hell who rebelled against Him? If so, why do you think there is no mention in the bible of God warning Adam and Eve instead of just saying they would surely die if they ate the fruit? That would have pretty much cleared it up, to set the record straight from the beginning about what our two choices are.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:08 PM
 
118 posts, read 147,680 times
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Here are the OP's original comments:

Quote:
1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
What difference does it make when you are before God's throne? Whether you accepted His Son at age 5 or the last minute before you died? You had an opportunity. If you believe God is faithful you can see that there were many opportunities where you could have received Him because God never gave up on you. If God is Holy and Just in all He does then He was after you from day one. If He wasn't Holy and Just then how could we be judged by a flawed and sinful God? We couldn't! In fact reconciliation to Himself through Christ could not have been made because then God is able to sin.

We cannot love God unless we all have the opportunity to not love Him. That is free will. Just because God is God and knows the hearts and decisions of His creation before time doesn't mean He cast some away or take away free will. God's will is for ALL to know Him. Taking the opportunity away changes the very character of God as faithful and just since there are some that never heard of the Gospel and therefore cannot be condemned by a just and faithful God.

Quote:
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
If you are mentally challenged, is not God faithful? Either He is or He isn't and understands this. Remember the scripture:

Matthew 11

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Matthew 18

3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 19

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


What are little children? Do they think with great genius or philosophical words? Nope! They pee, and eat, and poop and that's it and yet Jesus said the Kingdom belongs to such as these. It takes a simple child like faith to enter God's Kingdom. You can have it as a child, and you can have it as an adult.

Are the mentally challenged not like little children sometimes? Can they believe what they want to believe? Of course! God understands someone's limits but has given faith to all. If He didn't then they could not be judged. All whether genius or mentally challenged have faith. It takes faith to not believe in God as well.

Quote:
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!
All those before Christ DID hear about the Gospel. Limiting those until a physical resurrection I agree with you. Did not Christ go to the depths of hades/sheol which is what "hell" should be translated as and witness to those that were there?

1 Peter 4

6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


Well according to 1 Peter the dead up until this point WERE preached the Gospel of Christ. Take a look at another scripture:

Acts 2

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Plainly Jesus went to the realm of the dead (hell is hades/sheol) where the Old Testament Saints and all those who had previously died were and preached to Good News. The resurrection at end of days I believe to have already occurred so now no one has an excuse.

Matthew 12

36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.


Everyone must give account of their life. If even one person did not hear about Christ then:

1) God is not faithful.
2) God was never running after anyone.
3) God is unjust in judging all about what they did about Christ.

Quote:
Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.
There is not one scripture that states "babies get in free". All must give account.

Quote:
Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
I don't believe there is any contradiction. God is either faithful or not. He either reveals Himself to ALL or to none at all. I don't care if you were in the darkest areas of Africa and never had a Bible or someone come and witness, God finds a way and maybe it is direct. Either ALL must come and give account of what they did about Christ or the scriptures are wrong and some have an excuse. If they have an excuse and are still with sin(no blood of Christ) then they enter heaven out of default.

How can that be when nothing sinful can be in the presence of God. All have the opportunities to receive Christ. If they didn't, then the scriptures are wrong and not ALL have to give account.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:48 PM
 
1,016 posts, read 2,702,531 times
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I believe in limited freewill, or single predestination. God knows all who are saved, yet calls all to him. Freewill, at least regarding salvation, I believe is less of a situation in which one "decides" one path or the other, but rather one is drawn by the Holy Spirit toward salvation but the "free" part of one's self, the "Old Creature", fights for what it sees as "free", which isn't free but is simply continuing bondage to sin.

In that sense, it's not a fork in the road, but rather an escalator. If you stand on the escalator, you will go to the second floor. Via free will, or the work of the old Adam, you walk down the escalator toward the first floor. The tension exists between how fast you can walk toward the first floor and how fast the escalator is moving.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,263 posts, read 20,865,688 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
What difference does it make when you are before God's throne? Whether you accepted His Son at age 5 or the last minute before you died? You had an opportunity.
I think you missed the point on that one. How does a six-month-old baby accept Jesus Christ?

Quote:
All those before Christ DID hear about the Gospel. Limiting those until a physical resurrection I agree with you. Did not Christ go to the depths of hades/sheol which is what "hell" should be translated as and witness to those that were there?
And what about those who died after Christ who didn't hear the gospel?
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:42 PM
 
118 posts, read 147,680 times
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Quote:
I think you missed the point on that one. How does a six-month-old baby accept Jesus Christ?
I believe they can. The question is about the "age of accountability" issue. If there is such a thing, scripture does not state it. I did quote the scripture that all men must account. There is also the scripture that states

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

We are all born into the sin of Adam, including children. I also quoted the scripture that Jesus Himself said for the "little children" to come to Him.

Quote:
And what about those who died after Christ who didn't hear the gospel?
My argument was that ALL have heard the Gospel who stand before the throne of God for judgement including those before and after Christ. All must give account. If they didn't then they wouldn't be held accountable for their sin. Is there scripture stating that there were a few who did not hear of the Gospel? I have found none. All point to the fact that all must give account.

God Bless!
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:10 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,486,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Just throw in the doctrine of purgatory, and problem solved
Sorry Oakback, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. That is not at all what purgatory is for.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:49 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,959,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Sorry Oakback, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. That is not at all what purgatory is for.
How so?
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