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Old 05-05-2010, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Fort Myers
28 posts, read 51,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.
The baby only "gets in free" if the baby is chosen by God as one of the elect.

Because if you say that a baby is guaranteed to be saved if it dies young then why chance it that the baby will grow up and NOT be saved?? hmmmm terrible thoughts ensue. And how young is young enough to still guarantee salvation? What a mess...

Better to understand, embrace, and take comfort in God's sovereignty and His gift of grace which He gives to whom He wills.

Just a thought. blessings, w
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,669,437 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
Hi Brian. Freewill is an illusion. My choice is to drive a straight line to the grocery store but obviously I recognize that just because I can make that choice doesn't mean it is going to happen. So if I were to make that choice then I would drive into buildings, trees, etc.. trying to get their because they are obstacles in my path. So what do we do? - we choose the best AVAILABLE choice based on the obstacles in our path. So was my will (to drive to the store in a straight line) without costs? - no - the costs were that my will and its choice will be influenced by those obstacles.

See the real beauty here is that the LACK of such a FREE will is what actually HELPS us - not hurts us because it causes our wills to conform.

So salvation is about WILL-AT-COST. Where you exercise your will and discover it isn't free thus learning to conform a new choice based on such costs.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,599,528 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi Brian. Freewill is an illusion. My choice is to drive a straight line to the grocery store but obviously I recognize that just because I can make that choice doesn't mean it is going to happen. So if I were to make that choice then I would drive into buildings, trees, etc.. trying to get their because they are obstacles in my path. So what do we do? - we choose the best AVAILABLE choice based on the obstacles in our path. So was my will (to drive to the store in a straight line) without costs? - no - the costs were that my will and its choice will be influenced by those obstacles.

See the real beauty here is that the LACK of such a FREE will is what actually HELPS us - not hurts us because it causes our wills to conform.

So salvation is about WILL-AT-COST. Where you exercise your will and discover it isn't free thus learning to conform a new choice based on such costs.
Yes - I chose God by my own cost-will.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:03 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 1,494,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
How so?
Well, it doesn't help you get to heaven. It just purifies you on your way there. To put it as simply as possible.
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 884,958 times
Reputation: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi Brian. Freewill is an illusion. My choice is to drive a straight line to the grocery store but obviously I recognize that just because I can make that choice doesn't mean it is going to happen. So if I were to make that choice then I would drive into buildings, trees, etc.. trying to get their because they are obstacles in my path. So what do we do? - we choose the best AVAILABLE choice based on the obstacles in our path. So was my will (to drive to the store in a straight line) without costs? - no - the costs were that my will and its choice will be influenced by those obstacles.

See the real beauty here is that the LACK of such a FREE will is what actually HELPS us - not hurts us because it causes our wills to conform.

So salvation is about WILL-AT-COST. Where you exercise your will and discover it isn't free thus learning to conform a new choice based on such costs.
Couldn't rep you again yet but I think this is a FANTASTIC explanation. I agree with you. We absolutely have personal wills, but unless God allows it, our wills can't be achieved, something or other can be the means by which we are bent to God's will in this life, sickness, accident, disaster. I believe there's a verse in the New Testament that says we should not say, we are going to such and such a place today, but we must add...if it is the Lord's will, we will do such and such. Whose will takes precedence? The Lord's.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:43 PM
 
Location: E: (0.00) - S: (-0.97)
231 posts, read 279,863 times
Reputation: 243
I came across what I thought was an excellent explanation for limited freewill

Quote:
I was raised in the “free will” doctrine and taught it diligently for many years as a pastor. We all do have a will: the “problem” is that it isn’t free. “Free will” is a myth.
We did not choose our race, our nationality, our sex, our eye or hair color, our birth date, or even who our parents were. No “free will” there at all, and that is just for “starts.”
Free “free-will” is “influenced” by our culture, our society, our peers, our sex, our upbringing, our parents, and by our spouses, etc. “Free will” is simply an illusion. Everything about us is a composite of influences around us, and in circumstances over which we have no control or choice whatsoever. We did not even choose to be here.

Something as basic as the weather conditions restrain our so-called “fee will.” For instance, we use our “free will” to “choose” to go hiking – then a strong thunderstorm settles in and changes our “free will” plans.
My mother had no “free will” in getting cancer. My father had no “free will” in dying from it. Jenny had no “free will” in her husband abandoning her and her children. Bob had no “free will” in the loss of his job. Jerry had no “free will” in the drunk driver that paralyzed him and killed his son.


Aashish had no “free will” being born, and then living and dying without ever even having heard of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ – not even once, let alone the gospel of what He had done for him.
We all have a “will,” but whatever are its characteristics, “free” is definitely not one of them. Even our belief in “free will” is not of our own “choosing” – it was thrust upon mankind by the religious system. It makes for good theology, but it just isn’t true. Paul warned us of religion’s “will worship” (Colossians 2:23); and if we listen closely we can hear this worship of human “free will” in the language of its believers:
I believed in the gospel.”
I came to Christ.”
I chose to place my faith in Christ.”
I decided to live for God.”
The disciples may have thought that they chose to follow the Lord, but Jesus set the record straight:
You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you (John 15:16).
This is why John wrote that the work in Israel was not “of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13).

As parents we love our children; and they love us “back.” They respond to our unconditional love of them. They do not love us out of “free will” – they did not pick us out and “choose” to love us – they were influenced in their “decision” to love us only because we loved them first. They were set up! And so it is with God in His relationship with us. We learn this from John’s simple words:
We love Him, because He first loved us (I John 4:19).
There is no “free will.” The reason that we love Him is completely outside of ourselves. His love is the first cause from which our love springs. Paul wrote of this love being manifest through the Lord Jesus Christ to us:
For the love of Christ constrains us (II Corinthians 5:14).
His love is not just available, or a potential love, nor an offer of love; but a constraining love. “Constrain” is a strong word. The Greek word from which it is translated is sunecho. James Strong defines it as “to arrest (a prisoner).” The word is so strong that it is used in the Scriptures of being overtaken by a disease (Matthew 4:24; Luke 4:38; Acts 28:8).
It is interesting that Paul used this word, for he knew firsthand of Christ’s constraining love. It arrested him on the road to Damascus. Paul (Saul) was not seeking Christ. He did not “choose” Him. Paul met the resurrected Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, and there called Him “Lord” (Acts 9:6). This was all the grand, abrupt, course-altering, sovereign work of God in reaching Paul.


Paul was on his way to Damascus to do harm to the saints there. He did not change his mind by his own “free will.” Rather, it was the dramatic “Damascus Road experience” that transformed his will. Paul met with spectacular interference to his “free will.” He met the resurrected Christ! One day, those who have not trusted Christ during this life will be resurrected and brought into the presence of the Son of God, and will with Paul call Him “Lord.”
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10).
Oh, the extent to which God will go to reach man! Isn’t it odd how Christendom limits God’s ability, and yet makes man’s will free. God is not limited at all, and in due course He will pull out all the stops in reaching mankind with His love.
There are two “wills” in the universe: the Creator’s and the creatures’. God’s will is FREE, the creatures’ wills are not. God “will have all men to be saved” (I Timothy 2:4), and He Who “works all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Ephesians 1:11) will “reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:20), making Him “the Savior of all men” (I Timothy 4:10).
When my children were young we lived on a busy street with no fence around our house. I would not allow them to play in or near the street. They had no “free will.” I constrained them with my love.
We are not the masters of our own fate. We are not the lords of our own lives. We are the creatures, not the Creator. “He is Lord of ALL” (Acts 10:36), “in Him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28), and our response to His love is all a matter of timing, “but every man in his own order” (I Corinthians 15:23).

None of us had any “free will” in being included in the disobedience of Adam. It was forced upon us. Neither do any of us have any “free will” about the undoing of Adam in the obedience of Christ.

Therefore as by the offense of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life” (Romans 5:18).

Not even our faith to believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is a matter of our own choosing.
For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

THIS is the good news, believe it or not.
If we believe not, yet He abides faithful: He cannot deny Himself (II Timothy 2:13)
Taken from
HERE
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,987,739 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Well, it doesn't help you get to heaven. It just purifies you on your way there. To put it as simply as possible.

I agree
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:45 PM
 
5,499 posts, read 4,448,077 times
Reputation: 5148
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
I cannot speak for anyone...but it is not by LUCK/CHANCE that I came to know The Christ and his TRUTH. I willed to be a "free thinker" when "organized religion" broke up my family unit...yet followed HIS WILL when he called me out of darkness.

Luck is a word that I erased from my dictionary before I could call myself a believer in GOD Almighty.

Father who art in heaven hollowed be thy name.....Thy WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven!

Blessings...
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:31 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,942,225 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanda Short View Post
The baby only "gets in free" if the baby is chosen by God as one of the elect.

Because if you say that a baby is guaranteed to be saved if it dies young then why chance it that the baby will grow up and NOT be saved?? hmmmm terrible thoughts ensue. And how young is young enough to still guarantee salvation? What a mess...
yeah God picks their names out of a hat-you see how that just dosent make any sense at all
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,454 posts, read 21,138,982 times
Reputation: 10063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
I believe they can.
Could you explain how, please?

Quote:
Is there scripture stating that there were a few who did not hear of the Gospel? I have found none. All point to the fact that all must give account.
You don't need scripture to tell you that it took Christianity several hundred years to spread throughout even the known world. How can you say that it's possible for somebody born in, say, 200 A.D. in a country where Christianity did not even exist managed to hear the gospel? I mean where's the common sense here?
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