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Old 05-09-2010, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 879,579 times
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relinquishing our hold on thinking we have control of our life is a very difficult thing to do....and in a way we shouldn't think that we don't have to plan or think about this or that, just always know that God is leading us to the place He wants us to be I surely don't lie there in bed and say, God get me up if you want....I still go about doing what I think I need to do or try to do some things and I still get frustrated with my self when I don't do what I think I should have during the day. But somehow or other, I know that God still loves me and that it is He who is at the controls and He will finish me when He is ready. I just am very impatient. I tend to compare myself and that is not right, as bad as one child comparing himself to a sibling.
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,115,319 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
The purpose of a death sentence is to remove the transgressor so that they cannot do further harm.
Not exactly. The purpose of the death penalty is to get revenge. Prison is what is used to "remove" the transgressor.

Blessings,
brian
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Old 05-09-2010, 04:39 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,275 posts, read 20,017,000 times
Reputation: 2110
How many UR believers believed that we really are not free moral agents before they believed in UR ?, i did (although my confession probably said otherwise)
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:22 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
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By the sovereign decision of God, man has free will.

Simply read this. Or don't read it.

PREDESTINATION - What does the Bible say about God's sovereignty, election, predestination, and man's free will? - ChristianAnswers.Net

And this...

www.egracebiblechurch.org/sovereignty_of_god.htm

Last edited by Mike555; 05-10-2010 at 09:32 AM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:46 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
By the sovereign decision of God, man has free will.
Um, no man cannot have free will according to the scriptures that were posted previously.

I've read both of them. Its amazing that neither of those articles really address scriptures like Proverbs 16:9, 21:1, or Jeremiah 10:23. Those 3 verses alone refute free will. What about Eph 1:11? No comment from these articles.

The second article even says this: "There never was or will be a person for whom God did not have a perfect plan in eternity past." Then I have to wonder, why is not everyone saved? Is God's perfect plan destroyed by His own creation? Apparently according to this article.

Mike, I'm wondering how you answer all the scripture in post #59?

Furthermore how do you deal with Romans 8:20 and Romans 11:32? God is the one who subjected the creation to vanity and disobedience.

Free will is man's vain attempt to give himself credit. Its part of the "vanity" that we were subjected to in Romans 8:20.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:50 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
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If you really want to understand free will and why it is a myth, I highly recommend these articles:

The Myth of Free Will - Part A
The Myth of Free Will - Part B
The Myth of Free Will - Part C
The Myth of Free Will - Part D

They cover every angle with much scripture to support it. If you think you really have free will, try to answer every scripture in these articles.

If you think you have free will just because you make choices, you need to read these articles. First few intro paragraphs:

--

There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be manís ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all.

Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:56 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Um, no man cannot have free will according to the scriptures that were posted previously.

I've read both of them. Its amazing that neither of those articles really address scriptures like Proverbs 16:9, 21:1, or Jeremiah 10:23. Those 3 verses alone refute free will. What about Eph 1:11? No comment from these articles.

The second article even says this: "There never was or will be a person for whom God did not have a perfect plan in eternity past." Then I have to wonder, why is not everyone saved? Is God's perfect plan destroyed by His own creation? Apparently according to this article.

Mike, I'm wondering how you answer all the scripture in post #59?

Furthermore how do you deal with Romans 8:20 and Romans 11:32? God is the one who subjected the creation to vanity and disobedience.

Free will is man's vain attempt to give himself credit. Its part of the "vanity" that we were subjected to in Romans 8:20.
If you did read the links, you did so without comprehension.

This is precisely why I'm not wasting my time writing in my own words or bothering to reply to the posts where people are using scripture to try to disprove man's free will. People simply disregard the facts and continue to believe what they want. The information provided in the links shows that man's will is free by God's sovereign decision. No reasonable person could deny this.



Reader's may refer back to post #64.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:15 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
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Anyone who Honestly wants to know about man's free will can simply do a search on Google for 'Man's free will' and find all kind's of information by theologians and scholars on the subject. The information is available. You simply need to avail yourself of it.

People who deny the existence of man's free will seem to wish to remove the responsibility from man for making his own decision with regard to salvation.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:16 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,412,485 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you did read the links, you did so without comprehension.

This is precisely why I'm not wasting my time writing in my own words or bothering to reply to the posts where people are using scripture to try to disprove man's free will. People simply disregard the facts and continue to believe what they want. The information provided in the links shows that man's will is free by God's sovereign decision. No reasonable person could deny this.



Reader's may refer back to post #64.
Who's disregarding the facts here Mike? Hello? Did you read the scripture in post #59?

Wow, I guess you just ignore scripture that refutes free will? I suppose that's one way to keep believing you have a free will...

How about the statement in the article "There never was or will be a person for whom God did not have a perfect plan in eternity past." So I guess God's perfect plan for many people is for them to be blind to your beliefs and end up in eternal hell?

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Old 05-10-2010, 11:00 AM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,678,979 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Who's disregarding the facts here Mike? Hello? Did you read the scripture in post #59?

Wow, I guess you just ignore scripture that refutes free will? I suppose that's one way to keep believing you have a free will...

How about the statement in the article "There never was or will be a person for whom God did not have a perfect plan in eternity past." So I guess God's perfect plan for many people is for them to be blind to your beliefs and end up in eternal hell?

As I stated on another thread, God's will falls into three categories. God's directive will, God's overruling will, and God's permissive will.

Those interested may do a search on 'God's directive will, permissive will, and overruling will.'

I have provided one such result of the search...

www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/msword_docs/the.will.of.God.PDF (broken link)

There are many more.

God permitted the fall. He gave man free will and the means to exercise that free will by placing the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and then giving Adam a command to not eat of it. He did this to give Adam's free will something to work with so that Adam could choose to obey or disobey God. And it all has to do with the ANGELIC CONFLICT.

The Angelic Conflict; the Spiritual Warfare

Man's free will exists to resolve the angelic conflict.

There are always going to be people who will disregard the facts, and who will use scriptures that they don't understand in an attempt to advance their viewpoint however contrary to the word of God their viewpoint may be. It is useless to argue with these people.

I have provided some information to point in the right direction regarding the free will of man and why it exists, those who seek the truth. Those who care about the truth and want to understand why man has free will, and why man even exists can access the information. Those who aren't interested need not bother.

How much do you value knowledge of the truth? Each person reading this must ask himself this question. Your answer is between you and God.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-10-2010 at 11:12 AM..
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