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I recall having so many discussions with MYSELF about this.....yes God KNEW what we would choose but it had to all be played out so that WE could see...that as soon as God THOUGHT out something it HSD to ome to pass, and all that. But it so bothered me that God would allow MILLIONS to go to unending misery just to get a paltry FEW to come to Him of their own accord. I kept thinking, if HE will take a baby to heaven who didn't choose, or the mentally handicapped who didn't have the capacity to understand in this life then WHY couldn't he change a terrible person such as Hitler? I mean is that baby going to remain a baby forever? At some point he has to grow and learn....and if he is in an environment where there is no evil how does he know what good is unless God just implanted the knowledge into his soul, and if he could do that for a baby why couldn't he do that for the evil person?
Don't most of us agree that there is something very wrong with a serial killer? What is there in him/her that drives him to kill when the majority of people would not kill unless faced with death themselves as the only alternative? We so automatically think that that person is horrible and without a conscious...well what drove him to be that way? Circumstances? Sociopaths do lack the ability to feel the way most of us do. Did he arrange his own genetic code that way? As I've stated before, I did not CHOOSE to not like fish or any kind of seafood. I WISH I liked fish or shrimp or lobster. But the minute I smell it or get it on my tongue my body convulsively spits it out and I have tried to eat many varieties of seafood and the result is always the same. It was NOT a learned response. My parents liked seafood. So it is something in my genetic code that causes me to react this way.
We think God created this blank slate, but anyone who has had children KNOW that they don't just become what WE program them to be. They come with their own personalities right away, did they choose that personality? Did they choose if they were going to be sickly or healthy? Much has to do with heredity and environment, again choices they didn't create or choose.
We do have a WILL and babies ALWAYS choose what they want. They SCREAM for nourishment, for attention, for comfort. Hardly any child is generous right away. They have to be taught to share.
We learn many attitudes from our parents, but we didn't choose our parents. We didn't choose the country where we were born, the religion we are nurtured with. I think it is the exception when a person accepts a religion contrary to what they were brought up with.
So many factors to consider. But if you really think about it, we have very little choice in anything we do.
I recall having so many discussions with MYSELF about this.....yes God KNEW what we would choose but it had to all be played out so that WE could see...that as soon as God THOUGHT out something it HSD to ome to pass, and all that. But it so bothered me that God would allow MILLIONS to go to unending misery just to get a paltry FEW to come to Him of their own accord. I kept thinking, if HE will take a baby to heaven who didn't choose, or the mentally handicapped who didn't have the capacity to understand in this life then WHY couldn't he change a terrible person such as Hitler? I mean is that baby going to remain a baby forever? At some point he has to grow and learn....and if he is in an environment where there is no evil how does he know what good is unless God just implanted the knowledge into his soul, and if he could do that for a baby why couldn't he do that for the evil person?
Don't most of us agree that there is something very wrong with a serial killer? What is there in him/her that drives him to kill when the majority of people would not kill unless faced with death themselves as the only alternative? We so automatically think that that person is horrible and without a conscious...well what drove him to be that way? Circumstances? Sociopaths do lack the ability to feel the way most of us do. Did he arrange his own genetic code that way? As I've stated before, I did not CHOOSE to not like fish or any kind of seafood. I WISH I liked fish or shrimp or lobster. But the minute I smell it or get it on my tongue my body convulsively spits it out and I have tried to eat many varieties of seafood and the result is always the same. It was NOT a learned response. My parents liked seafood. So it is something in my genetic code that causes me to react this way.
We think God created this blank slate, but anyone who has had children KNOW that they don't just become what WE program them to be. They come with their own personalities right away, did they choose that personality? Did they choose if they were going to be sickly or healthy? Much has to do with heredity and environment, again choices they didn't create or choose.
We do have a WILL and babies ALWAYS choose what they want. They SCREAM for nourishment, for attention, for comfort. Hardly any child is generous right away. They have to be taught to share.
We learn many attitudes from our parents, but we didn't choose our parents. We didn't choose the country where we were born, the religion we are nurtured with. I think it is the exception when a person accepts a religion contrary to what they were brought up with.
So many factors to consider. But if you really think about it, we have very little choice in anything we do.
Great insightful post ScarletWren!! How true all of this is.......there are MANY, MANY factors that come into play with how each person turns out, and there goes that "nature vs. nurture" debate. But what about DNA? We don't choose that, we really don't choose anything. We are created in a certain way for certain purposes, some good....some not so good. We may not understand it all but God does and that's where we have to look....to God. It is His will and His plan, and we have to learn to accept that. I accept that He knows best and that all will be reconciled to Him because that's what the Bible says!!
We do have a WILL and babies ALWAYS choose what they want. They SCREAM for nourishment, for attention, for comfort. Hardly any child is generous right away. They have to be taught to share.
Exactly. Mothers don't put their little ones into dangerous circumstances to "see what they'll do." She knows what they can handle and what will cause them harm. She protects them until they come to the age where they can make reasonable decisions, and even making decisions is taught. (And even if they make a mistake, their mother doesn't torture them endlessly afterwards!)
There is no free will. I already explained that. If my will was free then I could drive a straight line to the Grocery Store just as my will desires.
i think your mixing your limitations with your freedom-there are limits to what we can do but we arew free within those limits,to do what we choose,.... also you still may have the will to go the way you want but that dosent mean you can do it
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
But GUESS WHAT? - It has COSTS. Sure I can make the CHOICE but the WILL to do it doesn't come without COSTS. So what happens? - I make a DIFFERENT Choice because of the Obstacles in my way. Those obstacles are INFLUENCING the CHOICE I will make when I get in my car and drive to the Grocery Store. That is why it is so irrational to believe in such a concept of Free Will.
exactly-YOU make the choice,YOU chose to get in the car,YOU started it and drove down whichevdr way YOU thought was best,the irrational part was trying to go in the straight line,which was physically immpossible,just like i mentioned in the previous post about flying into outer space,there are limits to what threse body's can do,but once we are herte we are faced with choices,and it is YOU that must choose,so how is that not free will,if God is making us do everything then wouldnt He make us be doing perfect things,there would be no murders and we would all be free(spiritually that is)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Free Will is about your Will being accomplished Freely. But let us suppose for some irrational reason that you still believe in this "Free" Will. If it was Free then if God punished you for something He gave you then it was never Free.
Again, from every angle this idea of "Free" will is absurd.
i dont get you there,if God was punishing us for something that He made us do then i think that is absurd.
and i didnt realy get what you meant here,what do you mean bye "God punishing you for something He gave you"and what do you mean it was "never free"
Reading these recent posts, I must agree that man does have a certain amount of "free" choice. I am aware that the scriptures state that before Christ came, we were free from righteousness. To me, this means that we could choose, but the only "choice" was to sin.
The scriptures continue by saying that now we have been made free from sin and death. Now, it's clear that when we look at the world around us we see a lot of "sin." However, I am now thinking that perhaps, since I believe that Jesus "undid the curse of Adam," then it would make sense that, in a certain sense, we are all "free to choose righteousness." In other words, before Christ, the "choice was sin." There was, so to speak, no other choice. Therefore, now that Christ has saved us, the only choice we have is righteousness. But this occurs only when HE decides to overshadow us in His presence, and the Christlife begins to take control and manifest itself in us.
In fact, my whole question regarding free will is not about whether man can do good or bad, but whether he can "choose Christ." To me, that decision is made only by God. We see man's heart open to the Word, but it's Him who does the attracting, not man.
Don't know if any of this is making sense, let alone if anyone here agrees with it..!
the reason I don't believe in free will is also this:
in my own personal experience, it was the Lord who came to me, I was not looking for Him.
And He changed me.
So I cannot in all honesty say that "I chose Him." At first I didn't feel a drawing to know God, but He was already at work in me. And I'm convinced that it was He who gave me the desire to seek Him later. But it was He who initiated things. At least in my own experience.
And I think many of you have had similar experiences. I may be wrong...
Reading these recent posts, I must agree that man does have a certain amount of "free" choice. I am aware that the scriptures state that before Christ came, we were free from righteousness. To me, this means that we could choose, but the only "choice" was to sin.
The scriptures continue by saying that now we have been made free from sin and death. Now, it's clear that when we look at the world around us we see a lot of "sin." However, I am now thinking that perhaps, since I believe that Jesus "undid the curse of Adam," then it would make sense that, in a certain sense, we are all "free to choose righteousness." In other words, before Christ, the "choice was sin." There was, so to speak, no other choice. Therefore, now that Christ has saved us, the only choice we have is righteousness. But this occurs only when HE decides to overshadow us in His presence, and the Christlife begins to take control and manifest itself in us.
In fact, my whole question regarding free will is not about whether man can do good or bad, but whether he can "choose Christ." To me, that decision is made only by God. We see man's heart open to the Word, but it's Him who does the attracting, not man.
Don't know if any of this is making sense, let alone if anyone here agrees with it..!
Blessings,
Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway
Ok, my last thing...
the reason I don't believe in free will is also this:
in my own personal experience, it was the Lord who came to me, I was not looking for Him.
And He changed me.
So I cannot in all honesty say that "I chose Him." At first I didn't feel a drawing to know God, but He was already at work in me. And I'm convinced that it was He who gave me the desire to seek Him later. But it was He who initiated things. At least in my own experience.
And I think many of you have had similar experiences. I may be wrong...
Blessings,
Brian
Of course it makes perfect sense Brian ... Both of the posts above i couldn't agree with more ... You humility and honesty are refreshing.
Reading these recent posts, I must agree that man does have a certain amount of "free" choice. I am aware that the scriptures state that before Christ came, we were free from righteousness. To me, this means that we could choose, but the only "choice" was to sin.
The scriptures continue by saying that now we have been made free from sin and death. Now, it's clear that when we look at the world around us we see a lot of "sin." However, I am now thinking that perhaps, since I believe that Jesus "undid the curse of Adam," then it would make sense that, in a certain sense, we are all "free to choose righteousness." In other words, before Christ, the "choice was sin." There was, so to speak, no other choice. Therefore, now that Christ has saved us, the only choice we have is righteousness. But this occurs only when HE decides to overshadow us in His presence, and the Christlife begins to take control and manifest itself in us.
In fact, my whole question regarding free will is not about whether man can do good or bad, but whether he can "choose Christ." To me, that decision is made only by God. We see man's heart open to the Word, but it's Him who does the attracting, not man.
Don't know if any of this is making sense, let alone if anyone here agrees with it..!
Blessings,
Brian
although i dont beleive that the world was without sin before christ,i do kind-of see what your sayin there,and this concept would also hold true to different cultural teachings,
God is the Supreme Will in this universe and not even a blade of grass moves without His will---
"thy will be done"-Jesus.
and ultimately His will will be dome because innevitably we end up back home ,how long it takes is entirly up to the individual,in other words i dont think Hitler will be gettin there as soon as lets say mother terressa,just as an example,... because at the end of the day its not up to us/and at the same time it is.-in other words-if God wants to save somebody,and what i mean bye that is somebody actally being transfered back to the spiritual sky(an ever expanding universe that is eternal and in this universe there are innumerable self illuminating planets,where God exists on All these planets,simultaneosly,eternally,this place is full of adventure,and everybody feels bliss,ecstatic transcendental love that is eternaly getting better,)sounds crazy but you have to understand that there are no limits to God,you cant put limits onto Him,otherwise He would lose the quality's that make Him God,just like me saying-"God cant love"-when we know that not only can He love but He IS love,its His quality,and very imbodiement,He is the personification of Love and many other higher things,but He is also all powerfull,limitless,without bound,this universe rest's inside Him and at the same time He is seperated from it,this material energy(matter) is a fragmental portion of His external energy,and He is also the Spirit which pervades the whole universe,He exists inside the heart of every living entityand everyone has an eternal spiritual personal relationship with the Supreme Person.but heres where we come into the free will thingy,we have fallen from this eternal place due to it(free will that is.TWIB
so if God controls everything then how does the free will thing,work.that is a question ive asked myself over and over,and heres the thing,while he is controlling the atoms,and sustaining reality,we are desiring along the way,i might desire for my hand to move and wiothout havin to put to much tought into it- it moves,but how do i know who's realy controlling it.but it is me who has the freedom(free will)to desire this,what we desire we go after,so if we desire God then we will find God.
back to your question about "choosing christ",was it not YOUR desire to choose christ,if so then does that rule out the fact that God chose for ya.im just asking?
i think we need to define what we mean bye" free will",because i cant see how we dont have it,everything is a choice,within limits,until we reach that place without limits,and there will always be limits on us since we cant do what God can,that'll never change God will always be Master and we will always be subservient to Him.
the reason I don't believe in free will is also this:
in my own personal experience, it was the Lord who came to me, I was not looking for Him.
And He changed me.
So I cannot in all honesty say that "I chose Him." At first I didn't feel a drawing to know God, but He was already at work in me. And I'm convinced that it was He who gave me the desire to seek Him later. But it was He who initiated things. At least in my own experience.
And I think many of you have had similar experiences. I may be wrong...
Blessings,
Brian
but He didnt put a gun to your head either-although He found you it was YOU who chose to follow-and to me thats even more beautiful,and i think He see's that too IMO
but He didnt put a gun to your head either-although He found you it was YOU who chose to follow-and to me thats even more beautiful,and i think He see's that too IMO
If you believe in ET, isn't that infinitely worse a threat than putting a gun to your head?
Of course i don't believe in ET, but that is what the church uses to proselytize isn't it?
The fact is even though i don't believe in ET, the only other option to believing and serving God is personal destruction, in that this is what sin ultimately leads to. Eventually the understanding of this and of Gods unconditional love and grace is what causes people to truly and willingly repent, that is to say, when God gives us this understanding.
The fact is all rivers lead to the sea, one way or another, and the sea is Christ our lord and his work on the cross which is for the salvation of the world. Eventually God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, either in this life or after the resurrection. Its not a matter of our choosing to know, it is a matter of when it is revealed to us by God in our hearts and minds.
According to scriptures, the carnal man cannot comprehend the things of the spirit of God, they are foolishness to him. So a carnal man is bound to sin and cannot choose to truly believe something that he cannot comprehend and thinks to be foolishness. He can choose to provide lip service in order to escape persecution or in order to escape what he is told to be the consequences of unbelief or even to be a part of a club in order to reap personal earthly benefits, but he cant choose to truly believe it(the gospel, i.e the things of the spirit of God).
Amen ...
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How true all of this is.......there are MANY, MANY factors that come into play with how each person turns out, and there goes that "nature vs. nurture" debate.
But what about DNA? We don't choose that, we really don't choose anything. We are created in a certain way for certain purposes, some good....some not so good. We may not understand it all but God does and that's where we have to look....to God. It is His will and His plan, and we have to learn to accept that. I accept that He knows best and that all will be reconciled to Him because that's what the Bible says!!
