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Old 05-04-2010, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,126,169 times
Reputation: 866

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Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,971,634 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian

Just throw in the doctrine of purgatory, and problem solved
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:59 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,216,735 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
No you are not the only one ... Do a search for free will on this subforum and you will find many threads that are dealing with this topic.

I agree with you and i will say you are very perceptive and courageous to acknowledge this and ask questions concerning it.

What the bible says about free will ...

Psa 37:23
From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.

Pro 16:9
A man's heart plans his course, but Yahweh directs his steps.

Jer 10:23
Yahweh, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.


Pretty obvious if you ask me ... Free will is a delusion of grandeur.




God bless ...
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Just throw in the doctrine of purgatory, and problem solved
Throw in the doctrine of purgatory on earth and I think we have a winner!
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,971,634 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Throw in the doctrine of purgatory on earth and I think we have a winner!
When viewed wthin the perspective of eternity, either one will work.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,962 posts, read 8,544,598 times
Reputation: 11771
Romans 8:29 settles the issue for me.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
***************
Foreknowledge is knowing who will chose God out of their own freewill. Our lives are like an open book before God. He knows what's on page one and what comes before The End-even before we write each page of the story of our lives.

God knows which of us will say yes. He doesn't make us say yes. People chose to respond to the call of the Lord.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,413,898 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
When viewed wthin the perspective of eternity, either one will work.
Eternity is a long time... especially if you are trying to decide in 80 years or so how you will spend it without any solid proof at all...

Free will implies that during your 80 or so years on earth you have enough information to make an educated decision relative to where/how you spend eternity. Or so I would think.
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Old 05-04-2010, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,971,634 times
Reputation: 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Eternity is a long time... especially if you are trying to decide in 80 years or so how you will spend it without any solid proof at all...

Free will implies that during your 80 or so years on earth you have enough information to make an educated decision relative to where/how you spend eternity. Or so I would think.

I trust that the best this rebellious, hypocritical sinner can do, will warrant the undeserved grace of a Loving God.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:48 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,637 times
Reputation: 263
Here's my take on free will. In addition to choosing a spouse, a job, a pizza topping, etc., we also get to choose whether or not to sin in certain areas. We'll all sin, but not all in the same way. These choices will affect our life in many ways, our relationships, relationship with God, and our eternal rewards.

What we don't have free will on, obviously, is to be born and to die. I know the moment my kids came into the world, and I'm quite sure they had no choice in the matter! In the same way, no one can choose to die or not. They might choose WHEN to die, but not whether or not they will die because all people are born and all people die.

So, I see it the same way spiritually. No one can choose whether or not to die spiritually. Everyone is spiritually dead until God makes them alive. Like being born, no one can choose whether to be born again or not. They may be able to chose WHEN to be born again, but eventually God will cause all to be born again. It's all part of His plan for creation, that was made by Him and for Him.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:17 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,935,695 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi all,
I don't know if the subject of freewill is off-limits here or not, so I'll post this and see what happens..

Now I can believe that man has some liberty in his brief life to choose a job, a wife, a place to live, what kind of pizza to order, etc.
But the idea that "God gave man free will, and whosoever will may come to Jesus before it's too late" is just ridiculous IMO, and here's why:

1) people die at all ages. If we all had the "same opportunity," we should all live at least the same amount of time, right? Equal time for all, right?
And yet some die minutes into life, others past 100 years... How can anyone say that both these cases had the "same opportunity??"
2) Different physical abilities. There are brilliant people, and there are people who are mentally handicapped. What if you're the latter??? What if you never hear the message of Christ in this life (like so many people in history..)?
3) All the people born before Christ are supposed to have a "chance to choose Him when they are resurrected?" Are you kidding? Who WOULDN'T choose Him when He resurrects you and you see Him face to face??? Having to "choose" in this life is NOT the same as being able to "choose" in the next!!

Now if someone says that "a baby gets in free" then children who die are just lucky, contrary to popular opinion. Same for those who are handicapped, etc.


Am I the only one who sees this contradiction?

Blessings to all,
brian
ive actually used the EXACT same statements as an argumant against eternal hell-every one would or should get the same chance....

now in my personal beleifs that actually awnser the question is that this is not our first life infact weve always existed and are experiencing the effects of karma-but like all pain and pleasure it is only temporary and their is a way to break free from the cycle of birth and death,it is innevitable for all since we came from the eternal spiritual universe but can take billions of lifetimes or can be done in one.......

the thing about karma is that sometimes we are forced into different situations bye the universe without even knowing it,our choices determine a particular outcome and sometimes out of thin air situations erupt either into chaos or harmony-we have free will but with every action there is an equel reaction,sometimes this karma can build up over lifetimes or it can be instant...

.but think about- say for example-that handicaped child you were talking about-what if in a previous life he did some terrible deed like kick a pregnant woman and the child turned out handicaped,now he might have been sorry for what he did and was in turn forgiven bye both the mother and lets say God -since we are on a christian forum-God forgives all anyway-but that dosent mean that he dosent take responsibility for his actions-now he has left his body and is in the hands of Yamaraja(superintendent of death)it was his actions that caused alot of pain and hardship in these peoples lives,now he must take birth himself as a punishment(no eternal hell)as a handicaped person-but when that life is over his punishment is over also,so now as a spirit he has learned a valuable lesson and is now free from such karma-which was always goin to be tempoerary anyway.
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