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Old 05-06-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,606,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike,

I will come back to this thread a.s.s.p. However, I do want to point out that it seems to me that you are saying that those of us who do not believe in eternal torment are lost. Which implies that one must not only believe in Christ to be saved, but must also believe in eternal torment in hell for others in order to be in right standing with God. I have heard all those arguments a zillion times about how an infinitely Holy God cannot just forgive man without a blood sacrifice, but I do not believe it. In fact, it was wicked man who required the blood sacrifice - not God. Eternal torment and blood-thirsty gods are pagan ideas.

Gotta get some sleep.
Heartsong
God said there can be no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood Hebrews 9:22
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,845,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike,

I will come back to this thread a.s.s.p. However, I do want to point out that it seems to me that you are saying that those of us who do not believe in eternal torment are lost. Which implies that one must not only believe in Christ to be saved, but must also believe in eternal torment in hell for others in order to be in right standing with God. I have heard all those arguments a zillion times about how an infinitely Holy God cannot just forgive man without a blood sacrifice, but I do not believe it. In fact, it was wicked man who required the blood sacrifice - not God. Eternal torment and blood-thirsty gods are pagan ideas.

Gotta get some sleep.
Heartsong
Jesus says:
"He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" .....

You claim:
Holy God cannot just forgive man without a blood sacrifice, but I do not believe it.

The result of your claim...the opposite of this verse:

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

in short...far away from Christ Jesus and God
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:43 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,319,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
OK...put it in whatever termology you understand it....
Twin - I've been thinking more about the terms and words that people on this board often use to describe what Jesus came to do. The term often floated about is Jesus came to "offer salvation". However, the whole concept of offering salvation is unbiblical. If you do a word search using a Greek lexicon, the Greek word we translate as "offer" is:

G3930
παρέχω
paréchō; ***. paréxō, from pará (G3844), unto, at, near, and échō (G2192), to have, hold. To hold out toward someone, to present, offer.

The Greek word παρέχω is NEVER used in relation to salvation or when the Gospel is proclaimed.

However, the Greek word that we translate as "preach" or "proclaim" is taken from:

G2784
κηρύσσω
kērússō
κηρύττω
kērúttō; ***. kērúxō. To preach, to herald, proclaim.

Now, consider Jesus' words in this text:

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach (Greek word 2784) deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach (Greek word 2784) the acceptable year of the Lord.

It is one thing to tell someone who is beat up and sitting in chains: "I'm offering" to set you free, if you'll only do such and such. But it is quite another to proclaim a persons deliverance and set them at liberty.

Now, consider the following:

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The first phrase "shall make you free" is used in the aorist tense (usually translated as a past tense event), but it is not necessarily time dependent.
However, the second phrase "ye shall be free" is used in the future tense. Something that has not yet happened.

So what can we gather from this? Those that Jesus proclaimed deliverance to (past tense) WILL BE, at some point IN THE FUTURE, set free! Praise God for it!

UR contends (or at least I do) that the captives shall be (future tense) made free. It's just that not all the captives know it. But they will know it in the future. Count on it. It's the Good News of the Gospel! And it was proclaimed (Greek word 2784) by our Lord Himself. Believe it. I know I do
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:01 PM
 
7,883 posts, read 6,702,544 times
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People who love the devil and reject the ways of the Lord.... Jesus calls the people who keep putting off the surrender to his covenant with him as slackers,,,,, Slackers is the worst thing Jesus sees in people who don`t come to him after he gave his all for everyone in the world to be saved...... Hell is for thoughs who love the devil and reject the Lord at their death in this temporal life on this earth......Jesus gives good gifts to thoughs who believe and is a Good God and he is not a devils keeper for there is NO mercy for the devil and his hords...... So thoughs who believe that God is Good than and would never hurt the people who love the evil devil and love the devil business....Is God bias to Good or Evil or both?
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:19 AM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,721,845 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Mike,

I will come back to this thread a.s.s.p. However, I do want to point out that it seems to me that you are saying that those of us who do not believe in eternal torment are lost. Which implies that one must not only believe in Christ to be saved, but must also believe in eternal torment in hell for others in order to be in right standing with God. I have heard all those arguments a zillion times about how an infinitely Holy God cannot just forgive man without a blood sacrifice, but I do not believe it. In fact, it was wicked man who required the blood sacrifice - not God. Eternal torment and blood-thirsty gods are pagan ideas.

Gotta get some sleep.
Heartsong
Wrong on both counts. Those who do not believe in Christ are eternally lost. Those who do not believe in eternal punishment are in emotional revolt against the clear teaching of scripture. However, many of those who do not believe in eternal punishment in the lake of fire for those who die without Christ probably never understood the issue in salvation in the first place and never put their faith in Christ for salvation. And in that case, they are lost.

It is God who required the blood sacrifices. It was God Himself who slew the first animal to make garments of skin to cloth Adam and Eve. Genesis 3: 21. Adam had made a loin covering of fig leaves in Genesis 3:7. The fig leaves represented man's effort to get right with God and was legalism. The fact that God Himself slew the animal and made garments from it for Adam represented grace. The work of God on behalf of fallen man.

God rejected Cain's offering of fruit which represented human works, but accepted Abel's offering where he brought the firstlings of his flock. Gen. 4:3-5. Abel's animal sacrifice represented grace and looked forward to the Messiah who had been promised in Gen 3:15.

It was God who commanded the killing of the passover lamb in Exodus 12:1-13. God commanded that the blood of the lamb be smeared on the door posts of the houses of the Israelites, and seeing the blood, the Lord passed over the houses sparing them from the judgment in which the Lord killed the firstborn of Egypt in the last plague on Egypt which prompted Pharaoh to free the Israelites. The blood of the passover lamb was a picture of the true passover lamb-Jesus Christ.

It was God who instituted the animal sacrifices that Israel practiced as a type or picture of the coming Messiah. Exodus chapter 29.

Denying that it was God who instituted the animal sacrifices when Scripture clearly states that He did, is blatant rejection of reality. As is rejection of the reality of God's requirement that the demands of His justice be met before He can forgive sin. The animal sacrifices were a picture or type of the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. Hebrews 10:10-12.

The requirement that man must come to God through faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved is stated numerous times in the New Testament.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-07-2010 at 12:27 AM..
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:59 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,696,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
OK...put it in whatever termology you understand it....

There is no proclaiming of the gospel beyond the grave....better?


All will confess that Jesus is Lord. Which is only done in it's true form through the holy spirit.

You can put something in whatever terminology you like. A confession that Jesus is Lord has a positive effect on anyone who says it.

So since ALL say it, then ALL will gain a positive effect.
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:55 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,845,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
All will confess that Jesus is Lord. Which is only done in it's true form through the holy spirit.

You can put something in whatever terminology you like. A confession that Jesus is Lord has a positive effect on anyone who says it.

So since ALL say it, then ALL will gain a positive effect.
That conclusion is based on what.....scripture or human reasoning. The devil's confess and are terrified, they know what their eternal fate is. They've seen hell and know they can't escape the final judgment.

That is why Jesus asked "Do you believe this?" because without believing\confession from this woman who said about Jesus (on this side of heaven)....will only be allowed into heaven.

John 11:27
"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
________________________________________________




FYI: this statement contains many doctrinal truths for a saving faith.
  1. confessed this while being alive John 11:27
  2. a heartfelt, meaningfully confession Mark 7:6, Hebrews 13:15
  3. acknowledging who Jesus is...
    • "the Christ" ( meaning " The Anointed One", or " The Messiah")
    • "the Son of God" the common title of the second person of the Trinity [no anti-trinity debates ]
    • he is the only name by which we can be saved Acts 4:12
    • He is God
  4. believed he fullfilled the all OT prophecies "who was to come into the world"
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Last edited by twin.spin; 05-07-2010 at 09:11 AM.. Reason: forgot a bible ref
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:08 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,696,796 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That conclusion is based on what.....scripture or human reasoning. The devil's confess and are terrified, they know what their eternal fate is. They've seen hell and know they can't escape the final judgment.

That is why Jesus asked "Do you believe this?" because without believing\confession from this woman who said about Jesus (on this side of heaven)....will only be allowed into heaven.

John 11:27
"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world."
________________________________________________




FYI: this statement contains many doctrinal truths for a saving faith.
  1. confessed this while being alive John 11:27
  2. a heartfelt, meaningfully confession Mark 7:6, Hebrews 13:15
  3. acknowledging who Jesus is...
    • "the Christ" ( meaning " The Anointed One", or " The Messiah")
    • "the Son of God" the common title of the second person of the Trinity [no anti-trinity debates ]
    • he is the only name by which we can be saved
  4. believed he fullfilled the all OT prophecies "who was to come into the world"

Based on scripture. It is doctrinal case building not scripture that says the devils confess Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:17 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That conclusion is based on what.....scripture or human reasoning. The devil's confess and are terrified, they know what their eternal fate is. They've seen hell and know they can't escape the final judgment.
Please cite the exact scriptures for each of the above sentences.

Don't tell me to look through the former posts cause it is not in them.

Just cite the exact scriptures for each of the above sentences so we can know if you are BSing us or not.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:26 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,319,692 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I guess all you have to counter with is grade school mockery......
Well, what did you expect...your answer was not exactly stellar... Com'on Twin, let's try again with out the Spin (play on words, forgive me ). Where does it say in scripture that the Holy Spirit can not regenerate a person after physical death?

Look here:

Mat 3:9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

If God can take dusty ol' rocks (that's right, rocks on the ground), good ol' rocks that are not created in His image, that neither see, hear nor understand anything, and raise up these rocks and turn them into the CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, how much more can God take His very own image, man, fallen as he may be, and do likewise? What will prevent God from doing the very thing He told us that He desires to do (I Tim 2:4-6)?

We know that Christ preached on at least one occasion to the departed dead (by the way, this scripture debunks your original argument ),

1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

So, we know it's possible for the Gospel to be proclaimed to the departed dead. Whether it be in this world (age) or the next world (age) is not the relevant issue. All worlds (ages) have been created and PREPARED by God:

Heb 11:3 by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

And we also know that the OT foretold that Christ would set the prisoners free. It matters not where Christ sets them free, but that HE SETS THE PRISONERS FREE. Look here at what Isaiah foretold:

Isa 9:2 The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.

Isa 42:7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon, And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.

Isa 49:9 Saying to those who are bound, 'Go forth,' To those who are in darkness, 'Show yourselves.' Along the roads they will feed, And their pasture will be on all bare heights.

Look, you've indicated in prior threads that you believe in objective justification, like a good Lutheran should . Well then, do the math home boy, look here:

Rom 8:30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Rom 8:30 is speaking of OBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION, not subjective. It is speaking of the eternal decrees of God, they are all OBJECTIVE from God's perspective. And how do we know this? Look at the word GLORIFIED. Has that occurred subjectively for you as yet? NO. It's OBJECTIVE. All the decrees of God are OBJECTIVE, waiting to be fulfilled subjectively, in time.

Why can't anyone get this. Is it because you do not believe the Gospel?
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