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Old 05-08-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,856,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Since when is to face judgment to face eternal hell? You are skipping past the judgment and sentence IMO. What if some are judged righteous? Is judgment then still a bad thing?....
Is it that hard for you to just read a verse without always over analyzing ?

All means all.....all people will face judgement.

For those who are made perfect in this life, judgement is a good thing.

Psalm 1:5
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

Ecclesiastes 3:17
I thought in my heart, "God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time for every deed."

Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
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Old 05-08-2010, 02:20 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,322,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Is it that hard for you to just read a verse without always over analyzing ?

All means all.....
So you do believe...Do you also believe ALL means ALL here:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Com'on Twin....tell me you do...LOL Don't spin on me now....
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Old 05-08-2010, 02:31 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,322,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You? Probation? What's up with that?
Don't really know, except the mod's collapsed a bunch of my posts from last night, took me awhile to find that Japanese pitchers video...
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Old 05-08-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 1,534,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
So you do believe...Do you also believe ALL means ALL here:

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Com'on Twin....tell me you do...LOL Don't spin on me now....
Read it in context as it would be read by believers.

Romans 5: 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God....


9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement....

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Take verse 18 and go back to verse 1 and you will get the context for which the believer is reading. It is by faith in Jesus Christ that one has access to this grace by which we, the believers, have been justified by his blood in order for us to say that we stand in to have this peace of God.
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Old 05-08-2010, 03:45 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,322,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Read it in context as it would be read by believers.
It is in context.

Quote:
Romans 5: 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God....
Who's faith is spoken of? Man's or Christ's? You need to go back and look at what "therefore" in verse 1 points back to:

Rom 4:25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

The resurrection of Christ testifies to our having been justified (because of our justification) by the death of Jesus. Paul, as well as all believers were justified by Christ alone, at the cross.

And what is it that justified us at the cross? Paul tells us here in verse 9 (high-lited in red) that you've quoted:

Quote:
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Quote:
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement....

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Quote:
Take verse 18 and go back to verse 1 and you will get the context for which the believer is reading. It is by faith in Jesus Christ that one has access to this grace by which we, the believers, have been justified by his blood in order for us to say that we stand in to have this peace of God.
The access you speak of is not by man's faith but rather Christ's. Here, let's read Rom 5:2 again, using a more literal translation, and compare it with the other two scriptures that use the Greek word προσαγωγή, that we translate as "access":

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.

It is Christ's faith (his faithfulness) that is being spoken of, not ours. The other two scriptures that use the term προσαγωγή (access) make this clear:

Eph 2:18 because through him we have the access--we both--in one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:12 in whom we have the freedom and the access in confidence through the faith of him,

It is by the faith of Christ that we have access to grace.

Here, read this, it will save me from having to repeat it here:
Justification by Christ Alone By Samuel Richardson

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 05-08-2010 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:08 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,856,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
Read it in context as it would be read by believers.

Romans 5: 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God....


9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement....

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Take verse 18 and go back to verse 1 and you will get the context for which the believer is reading. It is by faith in Jesus Christ that one has access to this grace by which we, the believers, have been justified by his blood in order for us to say that we stand in to have this peace of God.
This is what the woman did when she replied to Jesus...it was by her confession of faith that she was justified in the sight of God. That part of justification is the subjective.

Yes God has declared all the sins of the world forgiven..that is objective justification.
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:44 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,322,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
This is what the woman did when she replied to Jesus...it was by her confession of faith that she was justified in the sight of God. That part of justification is the subjective.

Yes God has declared all the sins of the world forgiven..that is objective justification.
Twin - I think you're confusing the two parts (or aspects) of our justification. The objective aspect of our justification before God is Christ alone (not faith). This is what justifies us in the sight of God, it is Jesus' death alone that does this. It is by the righteousness of one:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The subjective aspect of justification, or rather being imputed (or reckoned) with the righteousness of Christ, IS by faith, that Christ alone has justified us before God.

Here it is color coded:

Blue = Objective Justification
Red = Subjective Justification

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Subjective justification is that which brings the knowlege of Christ's righteousness imputed to us by faith. And it is this knowledge that brings with it eternal life:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:51 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,856,586 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Twin - I think you're confusing the two parts (or aspects) of our justification. The objective aspect of our justification before God is Christ alone (not faith). This is what justifies us in the sight of God, it is Jesus' death alone that does this. It is by the righteousness of one:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The subjective aspect of justification, or rather being imputed (or reckoned) with the righteousness of Christ, IS by faith, that Christ alone has justified us before God.

Here it is color coded:

Blue = Objective Justification
Red = Subjective Justification

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Subjective justification is that which brings the knowlege of Christ's righteousness imputed to us by faith. And it is this knowledge that brings with it eternal life:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
We maybe saying the same thing but in different ways. Using your color codes:

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son," this is a completed fact whether or not anyone believes...Objective

"that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." ..... subjective

Jesus is contrasting two groups of people. It centers around the subjective " those who believes" vs. those who will perish.

Other OP's address the points that people do have a subjective option after being presented the Gospel. Likewise, other OP's address what is meant "to perish" The woman in this OP correctly answered Jesus' question based on his previous statement by Jesus.

This OP was really meant to focus in on the correct response to the Gospel that Jesus spoke, not about eternal damnation. Actually, this was in response to the neg. comments about my supposed "hate" of unbelievers and more importantly a God who is hateful......who is far from it.
But that still doesn't negate the personal accountability of rejecting the justification....if God would not hold unbelief to account, then it wouldn't be subjective in the simplest term.
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