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Old 05-04-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." John 11:25-26
  • He who believes in me will live, even though he dies whoever lives and believes in me will never die.
Jesus dispells one of many false teaching with this:
  1. The obvious.... Jesus speaking to (in context) believers the assurance that you continue on living even though you die physically.
  2. To never die, one must believe.
  3. All verses of this nature spoken by Jesus are spoken to people prior to death. There is only one reason for that.
Physical death is the axiom of who lives eternally because of belief or who lives eternally and will condemned to "die a second death" because of unbelief.

Last edited by twin.spin; 05-04-2010 at 08:26 PM.. Reason: typo's
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Physical death is the axiom of who lives eternally because of belief or who lives eternally and will condemned to "die a second death" because of unbelief.
I have a problem with this. You're speaking of the "permanent" death in the Lake of Fire? After having been in hell and all that?

Well, God supposedly punishes to teach, I think. Right? To change people's hearts, etc. (That's my personal belief too...that God wouldn't punish unless a lesson could be learned from it.) What purpose then would it be for him to punish people by sending them to hell, only to end up obliterating them later? Much later?

He wants to watch (or be aware of) his children suffering and crying out, before he snuffs them eternally? That's not teaching. That serves ZERO purpose because it's just torture before the soul is ended forever. The person will not have ended up learning a useful lesson during this hell period since the person ends up just not being there (anywhere) at the end of it all.

Therefore I have a real problem with this interpretation...that is, if *I'm* interpreting it the right way! I don't believe in this "second death" thing unless people are also given an opportunity after death to come to terms with God.
If physical death were the end of being able to ask God to forgive oneself, the in-between time (in hell, purgatory or what-have-you) would literally be useless.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ View Post
I have a problem with this. You're speaking of the "permanent" death in the Lake of Fire? After having been in hell and all that?

Well, God supposedly punishes to teach, I think. Right? To change people's hearts, etc. (That's my personal belief too...that God wouldn't punish unless a lesson could be learned from it.) What purpose then would it be for him to punish people by sending them to hell, only to end up obliterating them later? Much later?

He wants to watch (or be aware of) his children suffering and crying out, before he snuffs them eternally? That's not teaching. That serves ZERO purpose because it's just torture before the soul is ended forever. The person will not have ended up learning a useful lesson during this hell period since the person ends up just not being there (anywhere) at the end of it all.

Therefore I have a real problem with this interpretation...that is, if *I'm* interpreting it the right way! I don't believe in this "second death" thing unless people are also given an opportunity after death to come to terms with God.
If physical death were the end of being able to ask God to forgive oneself, the in-between time (in hell, purgatory or what-have-you) would literally be useless.
I see the very same thing....
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:04 PM
 
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I don't think twin.spin believes in annihilation, but I could be wrong. Perhaps he can clarify.

Some people equate "second death" with "alive in fire/torment for ever". Not sure if that is what he meant.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:08 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." John 11:25-26
  • He who believes in me will live, even though he dies whoever lives and believes in me will never die.
Jesus dispells one of many false teaching with this:
  1. The obvious.... Jesus speaking to (in context) believers the assurance that you continue on living even though you die physically.
  2. To never die, one must believe.
  3. All verses of this nature spoken by Jesus are spoken to people prior to death. There is only one reason for that.
Physical death is the axiom of who lives eternally because of belief or who lives eternally and will condemned to "die a second death" because of unbelief.
Everyone lives forever. The choice and the issue is where will you spend eternity? Heaven or hell-the lake of fire-the Second death. And the deciding factor is whether or not you believe in Christ while alive on this earth. Now is the day of salvation.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:30 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,413,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Everyone lives forever. The choice and the issue is where will you spend eternity? Heaven or hell-the lake of fire-the Second death. And the deciding factor is whether or not you believe in Christ while alive on this earth. Now is the day of salvation.
This is the doctrine of the immortal soul that you believe in.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:07 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I don't think twin.spin believes in annihilation, but I could be wrong. Perhaps he can clarify.

Some people equate "second death" with "alive in fire/torment for ever". Not sure if that is what he meant.
Correct.

Physical death is only temporary. Existance continues after death.

What determines where one spends the existance eternally is belief....and more than just belief, it must be the correct belief.

There is no such thing as annihilation. The "then they" are the unbelievers, the "righteous" are the believers.


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

But this isn't about the damnation of unbelievers, but Jesus reply for the hope of the Gospel that we as believers hold dearly:

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." John 11:25-26

I will live even though I die. Because Jesus lives beyond the grave now...so will I.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:17 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,828,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Everyone lives forever. The choice and the issue is where will you spend eternity? Heaven or hell-the lake of fire-the Second death. And the deciding factor is whether or not you believe in Christ while alive on this earth. Now is the day of salvation.
Amen Mike.
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

"in the day of salvation I helped you"...when is that day?

"now is the time of God's favor"

Salvation isn't something that is beyond the grave. The only thing beyond the grave is eternity. Once again Jesus says one of his "I tell you the truth" truths

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,828,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Amen Mike.
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

"in the day of salvation I helped you"...when is that day?

"now is the time of God's favor"

Salvation isn't something that is beyond the grave. The only thing beyond the grave is eternity. Once again Jesus says one of his "I tell you the truth" truths

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
It should have read:
Salvation isn't something that is [offered to unbelievers] beyond the grave
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:06 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,316,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It should have read:
Salvation isn't something that is [offered to unbelievers] beyond the grave
Salvation is never said to be "offered" to anyone. Whether it be this side of the grave or otherwise. The Gospel is a proclamation of truth and a proclamation to be believed. There is a big difference between offering something and proclaiming something.
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