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Old 06-01-2010, 12:08 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,046,930 times
Reputation: 117

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Quote:
I am a little confused. According to my argument, He must have come within a generation as He said He would. Can you see that if we limit the prophecy to the destruction of the temple, all was accomplished if we go according to only Christ's words.

My point is that if we interpret Christ's words to mean a generation(2000+ years later) it changes the meaning of Christ's words to not mean their plain meaning and that Jesus would have no reason to include another event that was worldwide in His answer to the disciples questions. Again, Jesus only stated that the temple was destroyed, that's it!
You need not be confused! I had only made simple statements.

Christ said so many things in that chapter, not just about the temple. If you read that verse, after telling them about the incoming destruction of the temple, they left the place and it was in another venue that they now asked three questions of him namely

a) When the destruction of the temple will happen
b) What shall be the signs of his coming
c) The end of the world


Those are the facts.

Now your interpretation is that all their (disciples) questions was related to the temple. My answer to you is that it may be so, only if their understanding was that the destruction of the temple signals the 2nd coming of Christ and the destruction of the world. I have not read any other verse where the disciples would take that line of reasoning. Let us examine another Jesus's end time prophecy in Luke 17

Quote:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed
.
I have chosen this portion because the Christ used the term this generation in vs 25. By your reasoning he was talking about 40years after his death, so after Christ's death the early Christians were seeing several people who claimed that they were the returned Christ? Would that returned Messaiah(s) exist in Israel after he told them that they would not see him again untill they say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord? After he had told them that the kingdom will be taken from them and given to a nation bearing the fruit of the kingdom? If he returned then he would have returned to his Father's kingdom where he would reign. Was his Father's kingdom set up 40 years after in Israel? No!

Lets go to Dan 2:44 to understand how the Father's kingdom will be set - up. At least Nebuchadnezzar had the priviledge of the revelation and Daniel interpreted.

Quote:
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever
The Bible said that God himself will set-up a kingdom - by himself. It means that all kingdoms and set up of man will be destroyed and are temporary!!
How would God come by himself to set up this kingdom? Lets see Isaiah 11

Quote:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
A human being will be born with the Spirit of the Lord who shall judge the earth and it is him who shall set up the kingdom.

Quote:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
This man who is God, will enable the dispersed of Israel to come together, so we are told the rough time frame when this Kingdom of God will be set up. Will he be an Israelite? No!

The Lord God who will come as man already talks about where he will come from Isaiah 65:1

Quote:
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name
If you really cared to know, here's some help. The man is an Edomite. Who are the Edomites in this dispensation? Dig and find out, I'll stand by you!

Isaiah 63

Quote:
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
This is vision of God coming from an Edomite nation to execute judgement on mankind!

So How does Jesus Christ's coming figure in all of this? The man already told us that we will not see him again as Jesus Christ . He will come with a new name as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Rev 3:12

Quote:
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
So we see that the temple of his Father will be established on earth, and yes his father has a name which is also his new name. Why would his Father have a name? You only name a human being who has been born, so it means his Father also will be born, just like he will also be born. But the ordinary christians and religionist will reject god and his Christ just like the jews rejected Christ in his first coming. No wonder in his explanation in Luke 17, he made it clear that the generation will reject him and he will suffer many things in theiir hands.

How will Christ reign? Simple. His Father will hand over authority to him. But understand that the kingdom is the kingdom of jehova God and his Christ, the long expected kingdom seen by Nebuchadnezzar and interpreted by Daniel. The bible talks about this. Dan 7:9

Quote:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

and Dan 7:13 completes the deal for the returned Christ

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3 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The mode of worship in this kingdom s actually specified in the Rev 5:11

Quote:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:24 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,581,022 times
Reputation: 4468
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

Shortly (en taxes) - Greek, meaning in haste, quickly or speedily

The Revelation of Jesus Christ - and that's exactly what it is - is a work of God that occurs within each of His bondservants - it's a spiritual message about the uncovering of His Son within you. Once His work begins, it is quickly brought to fullness.

Saints, hear it!

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Old 06-01-2010, 01:48 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,046,930 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
I am a little confused. According to my argument, He must have come within a generation as He said He would. Can you see that if we limit the prophecy to the destruction of the temple, all was accomplished if we go according to only Christ's words.

My point is that if we interpret Christ's words to mean a generation(2000+ years later) it changes the meaning of Christ's words to not mean their plain meaning and that Jesus would have no reason to include another event that was worldwide in His answer to the disciples questions. Again, Jesus only stated that the temple was destroyed, that's it!

I 100% agree with you that the holocaust does not compare to the 70 A.D. judgement but there is a reason for Christ to limit Matthew 24 to the 1st Century in Jerusalem only.

It does not change the meaning of the whole chapter.Understand that the disciples asked him 3 questions , not just about the destruction of the temple. And throughout his preaching christ never associated his 2nd coming with the destruction of the temple. I challenge you to give another verse supporting your claim that all he said was linked to the temple. You are refusing to see the questions for what they were. Ignorant men wanting to know about:

a) when the destruction of the temple will occur

b) When He will come back

c) the end of the world.

Those were the querries he was asked and he responded. I think a point of error for you is the use or the understanding of the term generation - due to your own interpretation of it. One thing about scripture though is that it always answers itself, most often it does not need external explanation.

Let us go now to examine another Christ's saying on the coming of his kingdom. Luke 17

Quote:
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed
.
See above, he was talking about his second coming and in that coming he is still rejected by this generation and he suffered many things, before he is revealed. His reference in mathew 24 is similar to this. By your own interpretation that suffering many things occrred with 40 years of his death? Seriously..? Tell me you are pulling my legs!

Now you go:

Quote:
Do you see that the warning was only given in Judea? Why would Jesus do this, if this was a worldwide event? The only reason that is in harmony with the scriptures is that it was a local event in Jerusalem.

This fits nicely into the one statement that the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed:
Yea, part of the statement refferred to Judae that means the warning to flee to the mountains. After that christ now talks about his 2nd coming which did not occur 40 years after his death. Ok, am sure you're still not satisfied? now tell me where he answered the other two questions in that response- or did he evade it?



Quote:
Matthew 21

43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[j]

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them.


This prophecy was limited to the Pharisees who heard Jesus speak the prophecy. He was talking about them, not the 21st century. The Kingdom was given to the faithful of Israel and the gentiles who did not reject Christ, but just as every generation after(including us) whether jew or gentile.

Daniel 12 was also fulfilled. You are correct that God did not directly deal with man until this was to be fulfilled and rather the entire time before Christ. Sin had to be completely atoned for, for man to enter God's presence once more, just as Adam had been.
Another misinterpretation of scripture. He was talking about the present Jerusalem, that is why he mentions a new Jerusalem in the Revelation. The new Jerusalem cannot be the current Jerusalem under dispute! I hope you know the meaning of Jerusalem- city of the King. When he comes as a the King of Kings and the lord of lord his new city is the New Jerusalem.

I googled up earthquakes on the web and discovered that this 20th century have had the most earthquakes and of course the most wars

history of earthquakes in the world - Google Search
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:29 PM
 
118 posts, read 147,984 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
You need not be confused! I had only made simple statements.

Christ said so many things in that chapter, not just about the temple. If you read that verse, after telling them about the incoming destruction of the temple, they left the place and it was in another venue that they now asked three questions of him namely

a) When the destruction of the temple will happen
b) What shall be the signs of his coming
c) The end of the world
We agree.

Quote:
Those are the facts.

Now your interpretation is that all their (disciples) questions was related to the temple. My answer to you is that it may be so, only if their understanding was that the destruction of the temple signals the 2nd coming of Christ and the destruction of the world. I have not read any other verse where the disciples would take that line of reasoning. Let us examine another Jesus's end time prophecy in Luke 17

Quote:
Quote:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
I have chosen this portion because the Christ used the term this generation in vs 25. By your reasoning he was talking about 40years after his death, so after Christ's death the early Christians were seeing several people who claimed that they were the returned Christ? Would that returned Messaiah(s) exist in Israel after he told them that they would not see him again untill they say blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord? After he had told them that the kingdom will be taken from them and given to a nation bearing the fruit of the kingdom? If he returned then he would have returned to his Father's kingdom where he would reign. Was his Father's kingdom set up 40 years after in Israel? No!
Where in scripture do you see that the actual location of Israel is Christ's throne? Israel according to Christ was no longer rejecting ethnic Israel but faith believing jews and gentiles.

John 8

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.


Israel of disbelief is not Israel. It was only faith believing Israel(Remnant) and then encompassed believing gentiles=ALL THOSE OF FAITH.

Also scripture was clear that Christ's throne was never and would never be on earth even though His rule would include it.

Acts 7

48"However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says:
49" 'Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50Has not my hand made all these things?'[l]

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

God's throne was always in heaven and will always be. Most believe that Christ will reign on an earthly throne but that is contrary to scripture. Also, logically is not Christ God? Since God is spirit Jesus became a man(His creation) for our sake to redeem us back to His Father.

Why would Christ's reign for eternity be on earth when becoming man again is less then Himself(God)? Does that make sense?


Quote:
Lets go to Dan 2:44 to understand how the Father's kingdom will be set - up. At least Nebuchadnezzar had the priviledge of the revelation and Daniel interpreted.

Quote:
Quote:
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever
The Bible said that God himself will set-up a kingdom - by himself. It means that all kingdoms and set up of man will be destroyed and are temporary!!
How would God come by himself to set up this kingdom?
Lets see Isaiah 11

Quote:
Quote:
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
A human being will be born with the Spirit of the Lord who shall judge the earth and it is him who shall set up the kingdom.
Quote:
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

This man who is God, will enable the dispersed of Israel to come together, so we are told the rough time frame when this Kingdom of God will be set up. Will he be an Israelite? No!
I am little confused by your statement here. Christ was an Israelite and the Messiah had to be since the Messiah was of the same blood line of David. I believe you believe this when it refers to the 2nd coming in the Kingdom, correct?

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The Lord God who will come as man already talks about where he will come from Isaiah 65:1

Quote:
Quote:
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name
If you really cared to know, here's some help. The man is an Edomite. Who are the Edomites in this dispensation? Dig and find out, I'll stand by you!

Quote:
Isaiah 63
Quote:
Quote:
1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
This is vision of God coming from an Edomite nation to execute judgement on mankind!
Where do get the idea that the savior was an edomite and how does that relate to the fact that Christ was an Israelite? Isaiah does not scripturally state that God was an edomite(let me know if this is what you are saying?)

The scriptures you quoted (Isaiah 65:1) mention God came to a people that did not know Him, not that He was an edomite and (Isaiah 63) the scriptures only state that God was traveling from Edom after He trodden the winepress of the people.

The application of these prophecies to the 21st Century is not accurate in my opinion. We must take into account the time period the prophecies were given to Isaiah and who the audience was.

Isaiah lived in the time of the Assyrian invasions. The chapters you quoted have to do with the eventual Babylonian exile around 100 years later in which Cyrus the Persian(Medo-Persia) restores Jerusalem to their homeland.

These were prophecies of the coming judgement of Israel at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. If these scriptures have anything to do with the 21st Century, it is overlooking the fact that Israel was judged nearly 100 years later for unfaithfulness.

[quote]
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So How does Jesus Christ's coming figure in all of this? The man already told us that we will not see him again as Jesus Christ . He will come with a new name as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
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Rev 3:12

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12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
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So we see that the temple of his Father will be established on earth, and yes his father has a name which is also his new name. Why would his Father have a name? You only name a human being who has been born, so it means his Father also will be born, just like he will also be born. But the ordinary christians and religionist will reject god and his Christ just like the jews rejected Christ in his first coming. No wonder in his explanation in Luke 17, he made it clear that the generation will reject him and he will suffer many things in theiir hands.
You are correct about the reign of Christ is from God our Father but your application to a future yet to be determined is what I disagree with. I already showed that Isaiah was talking about the judgement of Israel at the hand of Babylon is not an application for the future. The handing of the Kingdom to Christ is also through God but I believe our disagreement is with the application of the "New Jerusalem" as an actual city that descends from heaven. Revelation is full of symbolism and the city from heaven is one example of a non-literal rendering of scripture. Here is the scripture:

Revelation 22

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


If this is an actual city in the future after the final judgement, why is their still impurity, shame, and deceit living outside the walls.

Everything was judged and the new heavens and the new earth had already come. How could sin still be in existence when the "new Jerusalem" comes out of the sky? This is not a city but a beautiful picture of the life of a believer in Christ. We are the New Jerusalem, a holy temple where the lamb(Christ) reigns within us. In a Christian, there is no night because Christ's light shines within us. Nothing evil outside of us can ever enter us because Christ reigns within us. This is an application to us in the present time and has been for 2000 years after Christ completed the atonement.

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The bible talks about this. Dan 7:9
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9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

and Dan 7:13 completes the deal for the returned Christ

Quote:
3 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The mode of worship in this kingdom s actually specified in the Rev 5:11

Quote:
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
I want you to pay close attention to Daniel 7:3

Daniel 7

3 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


The "coming with the clouds of heaven" was NOT TO EARTH. The Ancient of days(God) does not dwell on earth but in heaven. The very presenting of Christ to God the Father was NOT in the point of view of earth but from heaven. The grammar forces that in Christ came and was presented before God.

The perspective was from heaven seeing Christ ascend from earth to God to His throne. God's throne in heaven was the perspective and Christ then was given a Kingdom that would never end. The language forces a coming to God, not earth. Only in heaven was Christ given the Kingdom. There is only one event in which Christ ascends to the Father and that was in Acts 1 when He left on the clouds and ascended to God. This scripture is about the Ascension and the atonement Christ would fulfill in the heavenly sanctuary.

Do you see that the coming here is to heaven, not earth?

Last edited by Romulus0; 06-01-2010 at 02:39 PM..
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:28 PM
 
Location: RV Park
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I want to start a thread entitled, "Revelation is not a book of natural occurrences" so badly I can taste it...
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:46 PM
 
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Where in scripture do you see that the actual location of Israel is Christ's throne? Israel according to Christ was no longer rejecting ethnic Israel but faith believing jews and gentiles.

John 8

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.


Israel of disbelief is not Israel. It was only faith believing Israel(Remnant) and then encompassed believing gentiles=ALL THOSE OF FAITH.
We agree that after Christ died the whole world became Israelites and as Israelites we all belong to one tribe or the other. All references to Israel were meant for the whole world. Christ said that his followers will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. He actually meant the whole world!

You say he will rule in heaven! Big deal... Its like if I say you will rule in your house.. How about that? He was always ruling in heaven!!!!!!

Do you remember our Lords prayer? .. thy kingdom come... thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.." Sure you pray that regularly? Well the whole purpose of the man coming to die was for that kingdom to manifest on earth, not in heaven. The earth is where its happening man, not heaven!!! That was where a certain Lucifer deceived our Father and Mother. That had to be set right and that process cannot go uncompleted!

Nebuchadnezzr saw this kingdom as seen in Dan 2:44 and Moses, yes Moses saw it too. Christ only preached about the coming of the Kingdom of God. The Revelation talked about the kingdom of God and his Christ who will rule as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. That is his compensation for giving up his life unto death for our sake!!

Quote:
Also scripture was clear that Christ's throne was never and would never be on earth even though His rule would include it.

Acts 7

48"However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says:
49" 'Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50Has not my hand made all these things?'[l]

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

God's throne was always in heaven and will always be. Most believe that Christ will reign on an earthly throne but that is contrary to scripture. Also, logically is not Christ God? Since God is spirit Jesus became a man(His creation) for our sake to redeem us back to His Father.

Why would Christ's reign for eternity be on earth when becoming man again is less then Himself(God)? Does that make sense?
God said "let us make man in our own image". He made man to rule over everything he created. An angel will not rule (read Heb 1-end). God is man, man is God. That is why if you love man,you love God. If you glorify man, you glorify God and if you love God, you love man! That was why he came as man, not as fish or as dog and he would come always as man to rule!

The Most high cannot live in a temple made by man! Indeed , so its no surprise that the Most High has to come by himself to set up his kingdom. Man's kingdoms is on the way out! He cannot trust you and I to do it. It should not be read literally that he cannot live on earth. Christ who is God have lived in houses made by man. So, the literal interpretation was correct up till the old testament. In the new dispensation God has a dual nature. He lives in our hearts and he lives physically with us (read Rev 21:2-4

Quote:
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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Where do get the idea that the savior was an edomite and how does that relate to the fact that Christ was an Israelite? Isaiah does not scripturally state that God was an edomite(let me know if this is what you are saying?)

The scriptures you quoted (Isaiah 65:1) mention God came to a people that did not know Him, not that He was an edomite and (Isaiah 63) the scriptures only state that God was traveling from Edom after He trodden the winepress of the people.
He indeed will come from an Edomite nation. Moses saw this

Quote:
1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said,
The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Paran and Seir was the residence of the Edomites who were descendants of Esau. In the last days Isaiah saw him from Edom.

Again Habbakuk

Quote:
3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.
5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
Teman was a prominent Edomite family that were almost anihialated by David but they escaped to Egypt.

Quote:
Daniel 7

3 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


The "coming with the clouds of heaven" was NOT TO EARTH. The Ancient of days(God) does not dwell on earth but in heaven. The very presenting of Christ to God the Father was NOT in the point of view of earth but from heaven. The grammar forces that in Christ came and was presented before God.

The perspective was from heaven seeing Christ ascend from earth to God to His throne. God's throne in heaven was the perspective and Christ then was given a Kingdom that would never end. The language forces a coming to God, not earth. Only in heaven was Christ given the Kingdom. There is only one event in which Christ ascends to the Father and that was in Acts 1 when He left on the clouds and ascended to God. This scripture is about the Ascension and the atonement Christ would fulfill in the heavenly sanctuary.

Do you see that the coming here is to heaven, not earth?
"Clouds" we have agreed is a spiritual expression of God's power. Why do you suddenly take it litterally? Why would Dan be seeing visions of something happening in heaven but not on earth. The heaven mirrors the earth, if it happened in a vision in heaven then it will surely happen on earth! That was why he saw the vision for the last days! If it was in heaven why was he given a knigdom that all peoples should serve him? And if it were in heaven why tell you that it will not be destroyed!
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

Shortly (en taxes) - Greek, meaning in haste, quickly or speedily

The Revelation of Jesus Christ - and that's exactly what it is - is a work of God that occurs within each of His bondservants - it's a spiritual message about the uncovering of His Son within you. Once His work begins, it is quickly brought to fullness.

Saints, hear it!
The Spirit has revealed the mysteries of Revelation. Open a thread and let us discuss !
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:52 PM
 
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When Jesus will come back, he will come in the sky and everybody will see him. He will put to an end sin and will uncurse the world. But it won`t be before Armagedon, where all the army of the earth will be agains Israel.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:27 AM
 
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Jesus came as a suffering lamb for the first time and he died on the cross for our sins. He will come as a conquering king for the second time to judge the wicked and reign with his saints.

www.signsofthetimes777.webs.com (http://www.signsofthetimes777.webs.com - broken link)
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
Jesus came as a suffering lamb for the first time and he died on the cross for our sins. He will come as a conquering king for the second time to judge the wicked and reign with his saints.

www.signsofthetimes777.webs.com (http://www.signsofthetimes777.webs.com - broken link)

He is with us physically alread.With a new mision, and a new name. If you don't know him yet, ask God to reveal him to you
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