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Old 05-09-2010, 07:57 PM
 
118 posts, read 148,274 times
Reputation: 72

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The problem is this: His audience He spoke to did not see Him coming on the clouds of heaven. So how do you take it?
Simple. The same way a jew would have taken it back in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 19

A Prophecy About Egypt

1 An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.

The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
2 "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.


According to the scripture, the Lord would ride into Egypt on a swift cloud when He judged Egypt. We can see the fulfillment just a chapter further:

Isaiah 20

A Prophecy Against Egypt and Cush

1 In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it- 2 at that time the LORD spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, "Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet." And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
3 Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush, [a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cu****e exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt's shame. 5 Those who trusted in Cush and boasted in Egypt will be afraid and put to shame. 6 In that day the people who live on this coast will say, 'See what has happened to those we relied on, those we fled to for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How then can we escape?' "


Isaiah 19 and 20 are the same thing. Egypt was attacked by the Assyrian King Essarhaddon in 670 B.C. and conquered. The Lord never physically came riding on a cloud but this scripture was fulfilled when He conquered Egypt through the Assyrian Empire.

The cloud comings in the Old Testament judgements were never physical. A jew hearing Christ's words would have understood this to be judgment language as used in the Books of Isaiah, Nahum, Ezekiel, Amos etc. The Old Testament is our guide to understood the judgement language used in the Old Testament.

God always used heathan armies in the Old Testament to carry out His will and the same goes for the New Testament. There are many examples of cloud comings and celestial events in the judgements against Babylon, Edom, Nineveh etc. and yet none of those events never physically happened.

Jesus was telling the sanhedrin and the disciples(and those around them) that they would witness His coming on the clouds in judgement. God used the Roman armies to judge Israel for her unfaithfulness in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The temple was the last sign of the Old Covenant. With it's destruction the sanhedrin knew that God no longer dwelled in houses of stone and more so, no longer with them.

It was because of their rejection of Christ that God sent the armies of Rome to destroy the house of Israel in 70 A.D. God judged Israel the same way He did other nations in the Old Testament and used judgement language just as He had always done in his judgements against other nations.

Does this make sense?

Last edited by Romulus0; 05-09-2010 at 08:10 PM..
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,137,111 times
Reputation: 866
Maybe we need to be looking for the coming of the Son of God within us, not without us. Maybe the resurrection is happening right now within our hearts (if we listen for it).

It seems to me that, when we go beyond what we have experienced personally, we start to speculate about things we don't understand, and the debating never ends.

Just my thoughts today.
Blessings!
brian
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:45 AM
 
701 posts, read 661,092 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
Jesus Christ told his disciples that this generation shall not end before we see his manifestation and the manifestation of all the signs he rolled out in Mathew 24:4-34. The generation of Jesus Christ must have ended in 2001, a Bibilical generation is 2000 years. It means then that he has come even though we may not know him since he will not answer the previous name Jesus (Rev 3:12). Now if he has come, he would be with us as we match to the end of the current state of things, the change over from the doctrine of men to the kingdom and doctrine of God.

Why do Christians still expect him from the sky? Did the angels not confirm that he would come back in a human form, the form he left (Acts 1:11) and Rev 12:5? Did God glorify angels or any spirit apart from man (Gen 1:26-28) (Heb 1:13)? Man is to rule in this world and the Son of man must rule as man, not as angel (Heb 1:5-7). The difference between him and us is that all authority and powers and angels would be under his command. Our task is to unearth the corner of the world where this being with all powers now reside!

But remember that as was in days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man. He shall suffer many things and be rejected by men (Luke 1724-26)!
what most people seem to not realize is that the generation Christ was referring to was not the disciples generation. He was speaking about the signs of the last days, and it was in this context that he refers to the generation that shall not pass. The generation that shall not pass is the one that sees the signs Christ was referencing. And as far as a generation being 2000 years, I have never in my life heard that one before. regarding Acts 1:11 the Angels were making it clear that Christ would return in the same way He left. When He left He ascended into the clouds, when He returns he will descend from the clouds, and Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:34 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,506,710 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romulus0 View Post
Simple. The same way a jew would have taken it back in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 19

A Prophecy About Egypt

1 An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
2 "I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.

According to the scripture, the Lord would ride into Egypt on a swift cloud when He judged Egypt. We can see the fulfillment just a chapter further:

Isaiah 20

A Prophecy Against Egypt and Cush

1 In the year that the supreme commander, sent by Sargon king of Assyria, came to Ashdod and attacked and captured it- 2 at that time the LORD spoke through Isaiah son of Amoz. He said to him, "Take off the sackcloth from your body and the sandals from your feet." And he did so, going around stripped and barefoot.
3 Then the LORD said, "Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush, [a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cu****e exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt's shame. 5 Those who trusted in Cush and boasted in Egypt will be afraid and put to shame. 6 In that day the people who live on this coast will say, 'See what has happened to those we relied on, those we fled to for help and deliverance from the king of Assyria! How then can we escape?' "

Isaiah 19 and 20 are the same thing. Egypt was attacked by the Assyrian King Essarhaddon in 670 B.C. and conquered. The Lord never physically came riding on a cloud but this scripture was fulfilled when He conquered Egypt through the Assyrian Empire.

The cloud comings in the Old Testament judgements were never physical. A jew hearing Christ's words would have understood this to be judgment language as used in the Books of Isaiah, Nahum, Ezekiel, Amos etc. The Old Testament is our guide to understood the judgement language used in the Old Testament.

God always used heathan armies in the Old Testament to carry out His will and the same goes for the New Testament. There are many examples of cloud comings and celestial events in the judgements against Babylon, Edom, Nineveh etc. and yet none of those events never physically happened.

Jesus was telling the sanhedrin and the disciples(and those around them) that they would witness His coming on the clouds in judgement. God used the Roman armies to judge Israel for her unfaithfulness in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The temple was the last sign of the Old Covenant. With it's destruction the sanhedrin knew that God no longer dwelled in houses of stone and more so, no longer with them.

It was because of their rejection of Christ that God sent the armies of Rome to destroy the house of Israel in 70 A.D. God judged Israel the same way He did other nations in the Old Testament and used judgement language just as He had always done in his judgements against other nations.

Does this make sense?
What about in the garden when God told Eve that her seed would bruise Satan's head? She must have thought Abel was the one to rescue them and bring them from the curse. But when Abel was killed she must have thought Seth was the promised seed. It was not till thousands of years later that the promised Seed actually did come.

I wonder if those of that generation will see the Lord come in His kingdom because they are going to first be resurrected from the dead prior to His appearing as will the just and the unjust according to Daniel's prophecy and they will see Him whom they pierced?
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:10 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,050,204 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I disagree.. Christ was given authority during his life therefore his reign started the moment he began to minister. I also believe thousand years is symbolic for a very long time much as we would say we waited in the doctor's office for an eternity.

If he had authority why did he tell his disciples that he could ask his Father to give him a legion of angels to release him from his tomentors? It was after he died that he got the reward for his assignment. Read John 17 1-end,
Heb 1: 1- 6
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:51 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,050,204 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
what most people seem to not realize is that the generation Christ was referring to was not the disciples generation. He was speaking about the signs of the last days, and it was in this context that he refers to the generation that shall not pass. The generation that shall not pass is the one that sees the signs Christ was referencing. And as far as a generation being 2000 years, I have never in my life heard that one before. regarding Acts 1:11 the Angels were making it clear that Christ would return in the same way He left. When He left He ascended into the clouds, when He returns he will descend from the clouds, and Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
I like your quote: "Behold he cometh with clouds". Scroll back to the old testament, you'll see that cloud appearance is used to show the mystery of God. The quote did not say "Behold he will come from the cloud", so take note.

On Act 1:11, we need to relate it to our everyday occurrence. Conside a situation where your son escorted his friend out and stood in one place starring at the direction his friend left. Now assume you knew about the friend's coming from another direction, what will you tell your son? Think about this. The operative word used by the angels who had superior knowledge was "Why?' . When that was uttered, it meant that there was no need expecting him from the clouds. He would come back as a human being since he left as a human being, comfirmed in Rev 12:5. Read the ff text as well Rev 4:1-end, Rev 5,1-end, Dan 7: 1-12
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:54 AM
 
701 posts, read 661,092 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
I like your quote: "Behold he cometh with clouds". Scroll back to the old testament, you'll see that cloud appearance is used to show the mystery of God. The quote did not say "Behold he will come from the cloud", so take note.

On Act 1:11, we need to relate it to our everyday occurrence. Conside a situation where your son escorted his friend out and stood in one place starring at the direction his friend left. Now assume you knew about the friend's coming from another direction, what will you tell your son? Think about this. The operative word used by the angels who had superior knowledge was "Why?' . When that was uttered, it meant that there was no need expecting him from the clouds. He would come back as a human being since he left as a human being, comfirmed in Rev 12:5. Read the ff text as well Rev 4:1-end, Rev 5,1-end, Dan 7: 1-12
Wow! seriously!? did you read the other 7 texts? Not one said He would not come back in human form. I most certainly agree that He will, but He will never set foot on earth at His 2nd coming.
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:55 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,050,204 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What about in the garden when God told Eve that her seed would bruise Satan's head? She must have thought Abel was the one to rescue them and bring them from the curse. But when Abel was killed she must have thought Seth was the promised seed. It was not till thousands of years later that the promised Seed actually did come.

I wonder if those of that generation will see the Lord come in His kingdom because they are going to first be resurrected from the dead prior to His appearing as will the just and the unjust according to Daniel's prophecy and they will see Him whom they pierced?
This confirms that reincarnation exist. But Christianity denies re-incarnation
which Christ confirmed about John the Baptist and Elijah.
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:56 AM
 
701 posts, read 661,092 times
Reputation: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
This confirms that reincarnation exist. But Christianity denies re-incarnation
which Christ confirmed about John the Baptist and Elijah.
NO. that only confirms that a select few who are not saved will be resurrected at His 2nd coming.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:19 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,506,710 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
What about in the garden when God told Eve that her seed would bruise Satan's head? She must have thought Abel was the one to rescue them and bring them from the curse. But when Abel was killed she must have thought Seth was the promised seed. It was not till thousands of years later that the promised Seed actually did come.

I wonder if those of that generation will see the Lord come in His kingdom because they are going to first be resurrected from the dead prior to His appearing as will the just and the unjust according to Daniel's prophecy and they will see Him whom they pierced?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
This confirms that reincarnation exist. But Christianity denies re-incarnation
which Christ confirmed about John the Baptist and Elijah.
Not really. John the Baptist only came, according to Jesus, in the spirit of Elijah. He really was, figuratively speaking, Elijah.

Re-incarnation, according to Hindu religion, has people coming back as bugs or animals of some other being. Scripturally, the people resurrected come back the same person as they died i.e. just and unjust.
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