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Old 05-08-2010, 01:18 AM
 
352 posts, read 478,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Context my man. You just can't pull out a section of scripture. Look:

1John chapter 4 says---

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood. God's Love and Ours

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother
I didn't pull the verse to imply that all would be saved by God. I pulled it because you stated that nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is all loving and I just wanted to show you a verse where it states that God is the embodiment of love. I wasn't trying to forward any theological issue, especially since I am not a universalist. I was trying to point out that God is declared to be the embodiment of love. How can God be such an embodiment and hate people? They are contradictory; not to mention hate is a sin for Jesus said it was the same as murder. For God to hate would mean He is a sinner, thus not worthy of our praise.
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Old 05-08-2010, 01:21 AM
 
352 posts, read 478,174 times
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
The answer is the creation of a moral theater. In order for a person to truly love God, or another person for that matter, one must have a choice to do so or not. So perhaps it is in the nature of God to want our love for each other and for Him to be true. If that is the case, God had to create a theater in which it was possible to do other than love. I don't believe that this entails evil on the part of God, or that God created any evil. If God is benevolent, you have good; the will of God, and evil; that which is opposite of God. We could never recognize one without the other.

The Naturalistic moral relativist can have very little to say one who operates outside of his view of the collective and evolutionary moral code in which he believes. Moral relativism breaks down into the same evolutionary process of survival of the fittest that physical evolution does. Mutations occur which give an advantage over the other tribes and so forth, making our genetic morality hardwired within us. If that is the case, (and I don't believe it is), than the most a moral relativist can say is something like," You are not moved to action by the impulses that move most of us". Right. So?

If, on the other hand, there is a benevolent source of morality in the universe, then one can say to another that they "ought" to behave in a virtuous way, that it is the "right" thing to do, and not simply an evolutionary survival instinct that is subject to change or interpretation. The very belief in a moral absolute lends credence to a justified morality and societal accountability of action found lacking in the moral poverty zone of moral relativism/skepticism.
Very nice post. This was what I was hoping someone would eventually post. I was just wanting to see if there was some form of determinant evidence to show that our so-called universal moral code was actually the product of a higher being instilling it within us and not some sort of construct that developed over an extensive period of human existence.
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Old 05-08-2010, 01:36 AM
 
352 posts, read 478,174 times
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It is my hope to go to the book of Job and try to analyze somewhat the events that unfolded within that story. However, before we go into that, I would like to address the issue of Adam and Eve and the beginning of evil. In another thread started up by firstborn, he addresses the issue that the devil was not a fallen angel that rebelled against God, but a deliberately created demon.

See: The Lucifer Myth

If his analysis is presumed correct, along with what lego, phazel, and a few others have posted on this thread have stated about God and the purpose of evil in the world. Can we assume that what happened in Genesis 3 was a deliberate action set up by God to being the current process of Spiritual development for all of humanity or merely an unfortunate incident that was not originally intended by God? If you assume the former, why would God need to do such a thing?

See Genesis 1:26-27: "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, overall the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Judging from this passage, it would seem that Adam and Eve were already like God in terms of image and shared a unique intimate relationship with Him. Was the action that followed deliberate or not? If you think it was not deliberate, then why did God at least not remove the devil from entering the garden? Why not remove a source of evil that would have attempted to ruin an already perfect relationship?
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,020 posts, read 8,611,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Gads! If I had a dollar everytime I heard an atheist say the following I could retire:

1. There is no God
2. If there is a God he is evil
3. I want no part of this evil God


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I didn't pull the verse to imply that all would be saved by God. I pulled it because you stated that nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is all loving and I just wanted to show you a verse where it states that God is the embodiment of love. I wasn't trying to forward any theological issue, especially since I am not a universalist. I was trying to point out that God is declared to be the embodiment of love. How can God be such an embodiment and hate people? They are contradictory; not to mention hate is a sin for Jesus said it was the same as murder. For God to hate would mean He is a sinner, thus not worthy of our praise.
Well good. Now that we have got past the issue of whether God exists, your next step is to paint Him as evil.

Then step 3, which you are starting to touch on, is not wanting to worship this evil God.

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Old 05-09-2010, 04:02 AM
 
352 posts, read 478,174 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Well good. Now that we have got past the issue of whether God exists, your next step is to paint Him as evil.

Then step 3, which you are starting to touch on, is not wanting to worship this evil God.



I think you are confused. I am not an atheist by any means. I am a Christian; I accept and believe in Jesus Christ and that He is the only way to salvation.

I am not trying to paint God as evil either. I am merely trying to shed light on a complex issue. By definition, benevolent means good, holy, righteous, moral etc etc. How can God not only allow pain and suffering to occur but even cause it Himself yet be able to retain the title of benevolent when His actions are in violation of the commands He set forth? Does this not seem contradictory? This is what I am asking.
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