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Old 05-07-2010, 04:53 PM
 
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Here is proof positive that Jesus did not go to heaven while He was dead:

"Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17

Did you see that? AFTER Jesus arose from the grave He told Mary He has not ascended to His Father. He has not gone to heaven yet. He did not go to heaven while he was dead.

This is how we know for a fact that Jesus did not take any "souls" out of Hades and take them to heaven when He died. That is just old wives tales.

And even after Jesus did ascend into Heaven the Bible says He is the only one to have done this:

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

That means only Jesus went to heaven. No one else went with Him. No one else went to heaven before him and no one went to heaven after Him.

The only way we will meet the Lord is by resurrection. The only way Jesus got to get to heaven was via the resurrection from the dead. Otherwise there was no way. He couldn't while dead.

Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
This is how we know for a fact that Jesus did not take any "souls" out of Hades and take them to heaven when He died. That is just old wives tales.
Matt 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

No wonder you are always wrong. I wonder where they went?
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Matt 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

No wonder you are always wrong. I wonder where they went?
#1. Well, seeing as how Jesus told Mary AFTER He was resurrected that He had not ascended into heaven and those people came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection, we can rule out the idea that they went to heaven before Him.

#2. Since John wrote his epistle quite a long time after Jesus ascended to heaven and he wrote that Jesus is the only one who ascended into heaven, we can rest assured that those who came out of their graves did not ascend into heaven.

#3. Therefore we must conclude that those who came out of their graves were not given immortality and later died and were put back in their graves.

No wonder you are always wrong. I know exactly where they went.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Here is proof positive that Jesus did not go to heaven while He was dead:

"Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17

Did you see that? AFTER Jesus arose from the grave He told Mary He has not ascended to His Father. He has not gone to heaven yet. He did not go to heaven while he was dead.

This is how we know for a fact that Jesus did not take any "souls" out of Hades and take them to heaven when He died. That is just old wives tales.

And even after Jesus did ascend into Heaven the Bible says He is the only one to have done this:

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

That means only Jesus went to heaven. No one else went with Him. No one else went to heaven before him and no one went to heaven after Him.

The only way we will meet the Lord is by resurrection. The only way Jesus got to get to heaven was via the resurrection from the dead. Otherwise there was no way. He couldn't while dead.

Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
That definitely means 'something' (the "touch me not" phrase) but 'heaven' may be too broad of a term to pin down here.

What to you make of the phrase "the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

My view is that Jesus never left 'heaven' but that as a man God was 'descending' in a form which could be seen. Heaven was within Jesus and the blood applied to the mercy seat in heaven - presented there by our mediator.

I believe what the "I have not yet ascended" refers to is entering back into a different (highest) state of oneness with the Father.

Also - Jesus' death symbolizes the state of non-regenerate man and the resurrection symbolizes regeneration (I am NOT saying these events were not literal as well though).
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

#3. Therefore we must conclude that those who came out of their graves were not given immortality and later died and were put back in their graves.
All I can say is - if it was me and I already died was brought back to life and had to die all over again I would be very PO'd! That's double jeopardy!!!

Actually - I think I heard once that the text there is questionable in the first place?

One effect of the account (if true) would be when the disciples proclaimed: "Jesus is RISEN!!!" the townsfolk could have responded "*yawn* Oh, him too?"
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
That definitely means 'something' (the "touch me not" phrase) but 'heaven' may be too broad of a term to pin down here.

What to you make of the phrase "the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."
When John wrote that "no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven" he was writing that after Christ has ascended into heaven.

Quote:
My view is that Jesus never left 'heaven' but that as a man God was 'descending' in a form which could be seen. Heaven was within Jesus and the blood applied to the mercy seat in heaven - presented there by our mediator.
"God sent His Son into the world" so, yes, Jesus left heaven.

Quote:
I believe what the "I have not yet ascended" refers to is entering back into a different (highest) state of oneness with the Father.
O.K. but you can't believe He entered that state while He was dead.

Quote:
Also - Jesus' death symbolizes the state of non-regenerate man and the resurrection symbolizes regeneration (I am NOT saying these events were not literal as well though).
O.K. as long as you understand that as long as He was dead He was not in heaven, not with the Father and not alive in some other form.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:34 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
All I can say is - if it was me and I already died was brought back to life and had to die all over again I would be very PO'd! That's double jeopardy!!!

Actually - I think I heard once that the text there is questionable in the first place?

One effect of the account (if true) would be when the disciples proclaimed: "Jesus is RISEN!!!" the townsfolk could have responded "*yawn* Oh, him too?"
We don't know for sure but we do know that over 500 witnesses saw Him ascend into heaven after He arose from the dead. He did not ascend into heaven while he was dead.
Also He is the firstfruit of immortality. In other words, He is the only one so far to have immortality. The next group that are to get that are those who are His (see 1 Corinthians 15:22,23). Some bibles say "made alive" but that is not correct. A better translation would be vivified. Why? Because there were others who were made alive after they died before Jesus was made alive. Lazarus for one as well as the widow's son in the Old Testament and many others. But Jesus is the first one to receive vivification or immortality. So those who rose from the dead after Jesus did did not have immortality.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
When John wrote that "no one has ascended into heaven except the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven" he was writing that after Christ has ascended into heaven.



"God sent His Son into the world" so, yes, Jesus left heaven.



O.K. but you can't believe He entered that state while He was dead.



O.K. as long as you understand that as long as He was dead He was not in heaven, not with the Father and not alive in some other form.
John was quoting Jesus, right?

Since I believe heaven was in Jesus his body being dead or alive then would have no bearing on his. Of course, I don't adhere to a concept of 3 dimensional comings and goings from a physical place called 'heaven' then we may be at an impasse.

To me saying "Gos sent His Son into the world" is the same as saying "God sent heaven into the world". "Ascending to the Father" (to me) refers to a state of being.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
#1. Well, seeing as how Jesus told Mary AFTER He was resurrected that He had not ascended into heaven and those people came out of their graves AFTER His resurrection, we can rule out the idea that they went to heaven before Him.

#2. Since John wrote his epistle quite a long time after Jesus ascended to heaven and he wrote that Jesus is the only one who ascended into heaven, we can rest assured that those who came out of their graves did not ascend into heaven.

#3. Therefore we must conclude that those who came out of their graves were not given immortality and later died and were put back in their graves.

No wonder you are always wrong. I know exactly where they went.
LOL...keep smoking that pipe.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:42 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
LOL...keep smoking that pipe.
I don't smoke.
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