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Old 05-08-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,817 posts, read 12,170,618 times
Reputation: 4341
The Reason's Why Universalism Is False

TOM'S INDEX PAGE

Some points: (http://www.1john57.com/213refutations.htm)
  1. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good? God's love for every single created being does not save, for all have sinned (Romans 3:10, 3:23) and all have fallen short of the glory of God. God righteously punishes those that refused the free gift of salvation for they have no excuse (Romans 1:20). Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?
Moderator cut: edit

Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-08-2010 at 09:45 AM.. Reason: edited to comply with copyright rules of this forum /link+snippet

 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:09 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,833,221 times
Reputation: 647
NIV Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
KJV Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NASB Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

NIV Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
KJV Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NASB Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


According to this, God subjected the whole creation to frustration, vanity, and futility, and bound all men over to disobedience and unbelief. That is what God did.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 08:53 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,373,190 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Stay strong in the truth and don't depart from the faith.

Thank you, I will. Jesus is my saviour and of all mankind, yours too, and I will not sway from this truth.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 09:42 AM
 
10,205 posts, read 4,850,821 times
Reputation: 732
[quote=Finn_Jarber;14088558]The Reason's Why Universalism Is False

TOM'S INDEX PAGE

Some points: (Questions Without Answers)
  1. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good? God's love for every single created being does not save, for all have sinned (Romans 3:10, 3:23) and all have fallen short of the glory of God. God righteously punishes those that refused the free gift of salvation for they have no excuse (Romans 1:20). Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?Moderator cut: edit

Tom has improperly used scriptures to bolster his untennable idea of eternal torment.

God tells us to love our enemies. Tom's God refuses to do what He bids us do.

There is no scripture (properly translated) that teaches eternal torment. Obviously this has never reached Tom's mind or heart.

There is not one passage in Scripture which connects "eternity" with punishment. No, not even one in a properly translated bible. All punishment is aionios or for the eons. The bible says all the eons end so punishment can't possibly be eternal.

What Tom and Mike and twin.spin and the others fail to see is that due to Christ ransoming all mankind God will have all mankind to be saved (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6 if you don't believe me). Therefore all mankind must be freed into God's salvation. I know, I know, you don't approve of what God has done through His Son as to this matter. But that doesn't disprove it.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 05-08-2010 at 09:56 AM..
 
Old 05-08-2010, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,817 posts, read 12,170,618 times
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Understanding 1 Timothy 2:4


The universalist makes the error of assumming God's will is monothetic i.e.has but a single aspect
God does desire all be saved but he has determined to save those who believe and from the scriptures

shown above the unbeliever does not experience salvation
1Timothy 2:4 does not teach universal salvation.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,945 posts, read 7,141,415 times
Reputation: 4111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Understanding 1 Timothy 2:4


God does desire all be saved but he has determined to save those who believe and from the scriptures
God has willed to use the dishonorable vessel (the man of sin, the carnal nature) to reform and refine the creature as he returns to his Creator. In other words, "that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Heb 2:14-15)
 
Old 05-08-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,214,705 times
Reputation: 401
Mike, Finn,

Good sites. Lots of info there....I really like 1john7's site as well. He has several debates with Universalists around the web involving core funamentals of Universalism and dismantles them exegetically.

From the Preterist standpoint:

Universalism?, Colossians 1:20

Disproving PU (Preterist Universalism)

PreteristCentral:Is Univeralism a Logical Corallary of Preterism? (http://www.preteristcentral.com/Simmons'%20Response%20to%20Simmons%20-%20Preterism-Universalism.html - broken link)






 
Old 05-08-2010, 12:04 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 6,555,405 times
Reputation: 2168
Again. The purpose of this thread is to provide informational resources for those who want to know for a certainty that the Bible does NOT teach universal salvation. Unfortunately, in a forum such as this, one has to deal with the fact that those who promote the teaching of universalism are going to try to discredit the sources given which show it to be non-Biblical.

Those who have an interest in the truth, would do well to simply ignore the comments being made on this thread by those who would obscure the truth, and simply study the material provided in the first post, which is the reason I posted it.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 12:08 PM
Status: "Attacks in self-defense only." (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
13,926 posts, read 9,604,022 times
Reputation: 4603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Those who have an interest in the truth, would do well to simply ignore the comments being made on this thread by those who would obscure the truth, and simply study the material provided in the first post.
Why wouldn't it make more sense to study both sides of the issue? Just wondering.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 12:29 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 6,555,405 times
Reputation: 2168
[quote=Eusebius;14089614]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The Reason's Why Universalism Is False

TOM'S INDEX PAGE

Some points: (Questions Without Answers)
  1. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good? God's love for every single created being does not save, for all have sinned (Romans 3:10, 3:23) and all have fallen short of the glory of God. God righteously punishes those that refused the free gift of salvation for they have no excuse (Romans 1:20). Because they can choose between good and evil(2Peter 2:10). Self-willed means self-willed against God's will(2Peter2:10). When a Christian sins, is this God's will or Man's will?Moderator cut: edit

Tom has improperly used scriptures to bolster his untennable idea of eternal torment.

God tells us to love our enemies. Tom's God refuses to do what He bids us do.

There is no scripture (properly translated) that teaches eternal torment. Obviously this has never reached Tom's mind or heart.

There is not one passage in Scripture which connects "eternity" with punishment. No, not even one in a properly translated bible. All punishment is aionios or for the eons. The bible says all the eons end so punishment can't possibly be eternal.

What Tom and Mike and twin.spin and the others fail to see is that due to Christ ransoming all mankind God will have all mankind to be saved (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6 if you don't believe me). Therefore all mankind must be freed into God's salvation. I know, I know, you don't approve of what God has done through His Son as to this matter. But that doesn't disprove it.
By the sovereign will of God, man has free will. God permits man's volition to function in disobedience to His will. God desires that all men be saved. But all men are not saved.


There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.

1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''

It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.

2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.

Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.

God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.

C.I Scofield wrote...

quote
(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).

The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.

(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.
unquote

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).

3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''

God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.

God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.

Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)

It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.

It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.

It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.

It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.

It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day'' Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

See the following links...

Lesson 7 - The Will of God Part 2


D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)


By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.
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