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Old 05-08-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,208,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There was a non-debate thread labeled "why do you believe UR", and debating the issue was not allowed, only pro-UR posts were allowed. When I posted proof that UR was a sham, I had my posts deleted. Perhaps the mods could do the same here and dedicate this thread only to those who came here to discuss why UR is not biblical.
Because that thread was directed specifically to those the believe in UR for their opinion on why they believed in UR.

This OP is about articles that have been written about UR and the OP'er does not say he wants to specifically know why those that believe in ET oppose UR.

The intent of Ilene's thread was specifically and honestly wanting to know why some people believed the way that they do.

 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,879 posts, read 13,006,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
The intent of Ilene's thread was specifically and honestly wanting to know why some people believed the way that they do.
Perhaps the intent here is to specifically and honestly wanting to know why UR is a false doctrine.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:19 PM
 
10,762 posts, read 5,199,469 times
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[quote=Mike555;14091324]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

By the sovereign will of God, man has free will. God permits man's volition to function in disobedience to His will. God desires that all men be saved. But all men are not saved.


There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.

1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''

It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.

2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.

Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.

God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.

C.I Scofield wrote...

quote
(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).

The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.

(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.
unquote

(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).

3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''

God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.

God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.

Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.

John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)

It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.

It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.

It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.

It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.

It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day'' Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''

See the following links...

Lesson 7 - The Will of God Part 2


D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)


By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.

Mike555, you can write a billion words concerning 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and try to disprove God will save all mankind. But one thing you and all you quote cannot disprove is that Christ ransomed all mankind and it is for that reason why God will save all mankind.

You cannot disprove that all mankind must be freed due to being ransomed because all humans or animals ransomed must be freed.

So your post means absolutely nothing to me because it fails to see the necessity of freedom for every human due to Christ ransoming them.

RANSOM . . . remember that word Mike. RANSOM . . . do a study on it Mike.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:20 PM
 
10,762 posts, read 5,199,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Perhaps the intent here is to specifically and honestly wanting to know why UR is a false doctrine.
Perhaps you should study every occurrence of the word "ransom."
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:34 PM
 
4,118 posts, read 2,284,973 times
Reputation: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Because that thread was directed specifically to those the believe in UR for their opinion on why they believed in UR.

This OP is about articles that have been written about UR and the OP'er does not say he wants to specifically know why those that believe in ET oppose UR.

The intent of Ilene's thread was specifically and honestly wanting to know why some people believed the way that they do.

That's true.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:36 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,208,214 times
Reputation: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Perhaps the intent here is to specifically and honestly wanting to know why UR is a false doctrine.
The intent was to post articles about UR -- that leaves it open for both sides to say what they feel about those articles posted.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 04:44 PM
 
12,915 posts, read 6,982,428 times
Reputation: 2401
One good thing about the continuing comments is that it will keep the thread up near the top giving more people the opportunity to see it. And if they are interested in learning about the fallacy of universalism they will then go into the articles.

People are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. God is truth and truth therefore is absolute. Satan is the ruler of this world until the Lord returns. He is the father of lies. The false teaching that all men will be saved is one of those lies. People who don't feel comfortable with the reality of the eternal lake of fire and won't face reality will happily buy into any excuse given to them that will help them explain it away.

What I post on this forum is for those who want the truth. There will always be those who deny truth and who buy into, as well as spread the lies of the ruler of this world. But truth is always there for whoever seeks it.

The opportunity to understand the issue regarding the eternal punishment that awaits those who die without Christ has been presented in the articles in the original post. People are free to take it (the truth) or leave it. I presented those articles because it is useless going back and forth with people who reject the truth. Having come face to face with the issue, those who end up in hell have only themselves to blame.

How much do you value truth? That is the question each person must ask himself.

Last edited by Mike555; 05-08-2010 at 04:57 PM..
 
Old 05-08-2010, 05:43 PM
 
4,118 posts, read 2,284,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Having come face to face with the issue, those who end up in hell have only themselves to blame.
So I can get a correct understanding of you, can you please tell me what you see hell as being?
 
Old 05-08-2010, 06:01 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,048,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
God did not sin, man did.
Man did not create himself a sinner. God creates everyone, and He created everyone a sinner. It's God's responsibility to remedy this and He did by having His Son die on the cross to save all from their sins.
 
Old 05-08-2010, 06:04 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,048,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is the sin of mankind that is not good. God cannot be a part of any sin whatsoever. God does not force salvation unto all creation.
See my previous comment. Plus, God forced us to be born sinners, but He won't force us into salvation?
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