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Old 05-10-2010, 06:00 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,301 posts, read 8,285,250 times
Reputation: 1550

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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Systematic theology is for legalists. A drowning person doesn't pull up a chair to discuss the ins and outs of their situation.

If you've got the goods you pull them out - if not, you explain the finer points of theology.

Everyone falls short, but you are (apparently) looking for a confession of universal absolute depravity. If you were correct then EVERY unsaved person would be a sociopathic serial killer.

" A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings out good things "

" There is none good but God "

Suffice to say that in ourselves, that is, in our "flesh dwelleth no good thing". But we are not comprised 100% of flesh.
No, I want to know what God thought of us before salvation.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
To answer your question, I lean towards yes.
Well, to each his own. We're evidently going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do think it's interesting that you would say that the scripture is not clear on this. I'll go along with you on that. And neither one of us believes that scripture has to be clear in order for there to be a right answer. You use holy tradition to fill in the gaps where scripture isn't clear and I use modern revelation and we would probably both reject the doctrine of sola scriptura for the very reason that scripture isn't always clear.
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,580,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
No, I want to know what God thought of us before salvation.
That's easy: Someone who needed saving.
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:03 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,929,062 times
Reputation: 465
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June remembers that song from way back, as a child. Truly, truly, truly, all June's life, she thought the line in the song was:

"Who saved a wench like me."

June CANNOT BELIEVE that all this time she actually thought the song was referring to prostitutes!

-But thanks to the OP for the clarification/lyrics!

June: Feeling dumb. Very dumb.
My aunt for years thought the line: "When the roll is called up yonder" was actually "When a roll is called a piyonder"! And she always wondered what a piyonder was and why would anyone call a roll a "piyonder"??!!

It must have caused problems at the dinner table..."Mom can I have another piyonder?"...."What?"...."I said can I have another roll?!"
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:49 AM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,301 posts, read 8,285,250 times
Reputation: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, to each his own. We're evidently going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I do think it's interesting that you would say that the scripture is not clear on this. I'll go along with you on that. And neither one of us believes that scripture has to be clear in order for there to be a right answer. You use holy tradition to fill in the gaps where scripture isn't clear and I use modern revelation and we would probably both reject the doctrine of sola scriptura for the very reason that scripture isn't always clear.
To clarify, the only thing I'm unclear on is what God does with babies/children who die. Scripture is clear we are born sinners.

Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:52 AM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,301 posts, read 8,285,250 times
Reputation: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
That's easy: Someone who needed saving.
True, but were we wretched in God's eyes?
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:50 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,725,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
But universal salvation conflicts with so much other Scripture.
I see it totally the other way. I was a Chrisitan for over 30 years before I believed in the restoration of all things, and when it was revealed to me, all the pieces of the puzzle started falling into place. If one thinks mainstream Christians denominations' beliefs don't conflict with scripture, they are in denial. Please refer to this link to see many of the things Christians interpret to mean "going to heaven."
What does it take to go to heaven?
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Scripture is clear we are born sinners.
Right. Sinners without having sinned.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:04 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,301 posts, read 8,285,250 times
Reputation: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Right. Sinners without having sinned.
Do you deny Psalm 51:5?
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,299 posts, read 20,979,546 times
Reputation: 10001
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Do you deny Psalm 51:5?
No, but I believe it is referring to our having an innately sinful nature, as opposed to being guilty of something we did not do. I fully believe we have a sinful nature and that, when left to our own devices, will sin. I just don't believe that it makes any sense at all to say someone is guilty of a sin he is innocent of. And I know of no baby who has ever been born who is guilty of having eaten the forbidden fruit. So I guess it's a matter of interpretation of the verse.
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