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Old 05-18-2010, 08:54 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,820,632 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Matthew 25:46 tells those who have rejected Jesus Christ that they will go away to (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT), but the righteous to (ETERNAL LIFE). So you would have us believe that eternal life, is not the same duration of time, as eternal punishment? PLEASE.
I think Eusebius and Little Elmer already addressed this quite well, and so have I in other posts.

Quote:
The Devils lie, is that we need not worry about (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.)
And because of that lie, many people do not consider salvation.
That's not true because more people will come to Christ through the love that is shown in his people. God IS love, Universalism is love, and I personally can say that the doctrine of ET kept me away from God for many years. I wanted nothing to do with a God who would do such a thing. Now I know that IS NOT His plan, that His plan is just punishment for a season, not eternity. The devil's lie is ET.....it keeps people away from God and that's what the devil wants. I also know this to be true through the dm's I have received from others saying they were ready to become agnostic/atheist until they saw the change in me. Hallelujah!! THAT'S how you bring people to Christ....through love.

Quote:
There is nothing in the Scriptures that say the flames of judgement are actual fire as we know it? Obviously, you can read the Scriptures and just ignore what is so clearly stated.
NO, there isn't. God is described as a "consuming fire"....are you saying you know exactly what that means? We have no idea what His spiritual fire is really like, do we?
Quote:
Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this (FIRE).

So, was the rich man lying to us?
This is a PARABLE Campbell. The rich man wasn't telling us anything....Jesus was. This is just a story....it's not about real people. What do you think the rich man represented? Does it say He was going to be in this condition for all of eternity? No, it doesn't.

Quote:
Perhaps you should do what the Watchtower society did. They simply rewrote their Bible and removed all references to Hell. I believe that would solve your problem. Of course, it would not be truthful. And people who love others will not hide the truth from them.
I would never do such a thing as to alter God's Word. But there are mistranslated words and you know that. It wouldn't hurt if you replaced hell and eternal with their true meanings from the greek. If everyone did this then they would see that "hell" is not eternal.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:13 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,567,582 times
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To get this thread back on track let's remember it is about why God will have all mankind to be saved "For . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:20 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,254,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post




Clearly Revelation 14 speaks of eternal torment. Revelation 14:9 "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10. he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.11. (AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS FOREVER AND EVER; AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WHOEVER RECEIVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME."

How do you get a temporary condition, when Scripture states, (THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS FOREVER AND EVER?)
How do you get a temproary condition, when Scripture tells you, (THEY WILL HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT)?

It's obvious to me, you don't want to believe this. And spiritually speaking. It is always better to error on the side of the Bibles clear teachings. Then to assume the Bible must mean something else.


Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.



Here is it is in the Greek ...

or better still ...

Quote:
kai
kai
G2532
Conj
ANDo

ho
G3588
t_ Nom Sg m
THE

kapnos
kapnos
G2586
n_ Nom Sg m
smoke
fumes

tou
tou
G3588
t_ Gen Sg m
OF-THE

basanismou
basanismou
G929
n_ Gen Sg m
ORDEALing
torment

autwn
autOn
G846
pp Gen Pl m
OF-them

anabainei
anabainei
G305
vi Pres Act 3 Sg
IS-UP-STEPPING
is-ascending

eis
eis
G1519
Prep
INTO

aiwnas
aiOnas
G165
n_ Acc Pl m
eons

aiwnwn
aiOnOn
G165
n_ Gen Pl m
OF-eons


kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND

ouk
ouk
G3756
Part Neg
NOT

ecousin
echousin
G2192
vi Pres Act 3 Pl
THEY-ARE-HAVING

anapausin
anapausin
G372
n_ Acc Sg f
UP-CEASing
rest

hmeras
hEmeras
G2250
n_ Gen Sg f
OF-DAY
day

kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND

nuktos
nuktos
G3571
n_ Gen Sg f
OF-NIGHT
night

oi
hoi
G3588
t_ Nom Pl m
THE

proskunountes
proskunountes
G4352
vp Pres Act Nom Pl m
ones-worshipING
ones-worshiping

to
to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE

qhrion
thErion
G2342
n_ Acc Sg n
WILD-BEAST

kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND

thn
tEn
G3588
t_ Acc Sg f
THE

eikona
eikona
G1504
n_ Acc Sg f
image

autou
autou
G846
pp Gen Sg n
OF-it

kai
kai
G2532
Conj
AND

ei
ei
G1487
Cond
IF

tis
tis
G5100
px Nom Sg m
ANY
anyone

lambanei
lambanei
G2983
vi Pres Act 3 Sg
IS-GETTING-UP
is-getting

to
to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE

caragma
charagma
G5480
n_ Acc Sg n
CARVE-effect
emblem

tou
tou
G3588
t_ Gen Sg n
OF-THE

onomatos
onomatos
G3686
n_ Gen Sg n
NAME

autou
autou
G846
pp Gen Sg n
OF-it
Now there are two reasons(facts) why the translations of the scriptures which translate "aionas ton aionon" as "for ever and ever" are erroneous.

1. In the Greek, both words which were translated "ever" (aionas and aionon) are in their PLURAL form. Thus even if the words "aionas aionon" were to be translated properly in this way it would be translated as "evers and evers" ... And that is simply rediculous ...

2. Ever is an adverb, while "aionas" and "aionon" are both plural nouns ...


Thus in the Greek we are told that the smoke rises into something or until something(the "aionas ton aionon"), yet in many translations the something into which the smoke is rising is translated as if it were simply qualifying the verb "rising" ... Again aionas and aionon are translated as adverbs when in fact they are nouns.


Now, when anything is burned, the fire consumes it as fuel and what ever is so consumed transforms into smoke and ashes. The smoke in this verse represents the soul which has been purified of sin and death(the ashes) and rises into or unto the "ages of ages" to become one with God. As the scriptures teach that at the end of the ages God will become all in all ...

This is what the verse is actually symbolically representing. And the word torment actually means purify, in the Greek it is "basanismou". A basanismou was a touchstone which was used in the process of refining metals to test the quality or purity of the metal being refined.

That is also the meaning of fire and brimstone, both of which were used in ancient times by many cultures, including both the Hebrew and Greek cultures, to purify holy relics, and to ward of pestilence. Fire represents the purifying and trans-formative power of Gods judgments which consumes the sin and cleanses the sinner. Brimstone or sulfur is symbolic in the same way as an agent of purification and sanctification.



God bless ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 05-18-2010 at 04:49 PM..
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:39 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,820,632 times
Reputation: 58199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post



Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.



Here is it is in the Greek ...

or better still ...

Now there are two reasons(facts) why the translations of the scriptures which translate "aionas ton aionon" as "for ever and ever" are erroneous.

1. In the Greek, both words which were translated "ever" (aionas and aionon) are in their PLURAL form. Thus even if the words "aionas aionon" were to be translated properly in this way it would be translated as "evers and evers" ... And that is simply rediculous ...

2. Ever is an adverb, while "aionas" and "aionon" are both plural nouns ...


Thus in the Greek we are told that the smoke rises into something or until something(the "aionas ton aionon"), yet in many translations the something into which the smoke is rising is translated as if it were simply qualifying the verb "rising" ... Again aionas and aionon are translated as adverbs when in fact they are nouns.


Now, when anything is burned, the fire consumes it as fuel and what ever is so consumed transforms into smoke and ashes. The smoke in this verse represents the soul which has been purified of sin and death(the ashes) and rises into or unto the "ages of ages" to become one with God. As the scriptures teach that at the end of the ages God will become all in all ...

This is what the verse is actually symbolically representing. And the word torment actually means purify, in the Greek it is "basanismou". A basanismou was a touchstone which was used in the process of refining metals to test the quality or purity of the metal being refined.

That is also the meaning of fire and brimstone, both of which were used in ancient times by many cultures, including both the Hebrew and Greek cultures, to purify holy relics, and to ward of pestilence. Fire represents the purifying and trans-formative power of Gods judgments which consumes the sin and cleanses the sinner. Brimstone or sulfur is symbolic in the same way as an agent of purification and sanctification.



God bless ...
Great post Ironmaw....thanks!!
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:00 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,732,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If aionios meant "eternal" then, yes, you would be correct to state that eternal life is the same duration of time as eternal punishment.

The problem is that aionios does not mean "eternal." It is an adjective telling us about that which pertains to the eon.
Therefore the eonian life is th esame duration of time as the eonian punishment.

The kolasin in aionion kolasin (eonian chastening) was always thought of as remedial.



Actually, I think part of the problem is not so much the devil's lie but that the punishment, if it be eternal, is so beyond believable that people scoff at such an idea or they can't possibly understand such an idea of a loving God eternally torturing them in fire for things they did which did not merit such a terrible fate.



Have you ever "been on fire" for the Lord? Did Paul say 1Cor 7:9 "Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire."

When we do good to an enemy do we literally heap coals of fire on their head?



Was Paul lying to us about fire?



Campell, let's quit with the guilt by association tactics. It makes you look bad and proves nothing. I could say: "Perhaps you should do what the Satanists do and leave Hell in your Bibles." See? It proves nothing.

There are many good Bibles out there that do not have "hell" in their bibles. Young's Literal Translation of 1898 does not contain the word "hell." Weymouth New Testament of 1912 does not either. The Concordant Literal New Testament and Old Testament does not either. They didn't copy from the Watchtower society to arrive at their conclusion. They found that Hell is just a bad translation of "Sheol," "Hades" "the grave" "Gehenna" etc.

Let's get back to the Original Post of this thread concerning all mankind being ransomed and due to that "God will have all mankind to be saved."

It doesn't say "God will have all mankind to be saved if they just do their part and receive it or believe it. It says "God will have all mankind to be saved FOR . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." That's the reason. The reason is due to what Christ did, not what God required of anyone else.

It says, (GOD WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED)?
What translation did you get that from?

Because my Bible states that God our Saviour, (WHO WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.)

There is a big difference between, (WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED) and (WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED). And it also tell us, that God wants all men (TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH). Which is much different (THAN MAKING ALL MANKIND COME TO THE TRUTH).

This a perfect example how I see people inserting their own wording, to push a belief that Scripture does not support.

And the Young's Literal Translation, Weymouth New Testament, and the Concordant Literal New Testament are but a fraction of the translations. And you take these few and reject the vast majority of others? The fact is, the Watchtower Society New World Translation has been rejected by Biblical Scholars World Wide. And that is because it is really not a translation, but a corrupt sectarian Paraphrase. Greek scholars use words to describe it as, frightful mistranslation, erroneous, reprehensible, ect.

Consider the link below. Now I believe, and understand why you believe what you do.

The New World Translation: A corrupt sectarian paraphrase. 1666 pages....Mark of the beast?
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,465,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
It says, (GOD WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED)?
What translation did you get that from?

Because my Bible states that God our Saviour, (WHO WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.)

There is a big difference between, (WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED) and (WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED). And it also tell us, that God wants all men (TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH). Which is much different (THAN MAKING ALL MANKIND COME TO THE TRUTH).

This a perfect example how I see people inserting their own wording, to push a belief that Scripture does not support.

And the Young's Literal Translation, Weymouth New Testament, and the Concordant Literal New Testament are but a fraction of the translations. And you take these few and reject the vast majority of others? The fact is, the Watchtower Society New World Translation has been rejected by Biblical Scholars World Wide. And that is because it is really not a translation, but a corrupt sectarian Paraphrase. Greek scholars use words to describe it as, frightful mistranslation, erroneous, reprehensible, ect.

Consider the link below. Now I believe, and understand why you believe what you do.

The New World Translation: A corrupt sectarian paraphrase. 1666 pages....Mark of the beast?
Naturally Eusebius is assuming that God gets what he wants and WILL HAVE all men to be saved. So are you saying that even God is not able to get what he wants?

It all comes down to whether you believe that God wants and wills all men to be saved. If you do then don't you have to concede that God is really the only one who truly does get what he desires? or not?
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:22 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,732,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Naturally Eusebius is assuming that God gets what he wants and WILL HAVE all men to be saved. So are you saying that even God is not able to get what he wants?

It all comes down to whether you believe that God wants and wills all men to be saved. If you do then don't you have to concede that God is really the only one who truly does get what he desires? or not?




God did not want to destroy the earth with a flood. Yet He did. God really wanted Israel to follow Him, yet they did not. God desires the whole world to be saved. Yet it will not be. God gives man a free choice to choose right from wrong. And that choice belongs to us. God did not create mindless robots. He created men and woman to willingly serve Him, or to willingly reject Him. It's obvious in the Scriptures, that God often did not get what He wanted.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:16 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,254,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
God did not want to destroy the earth with a flood. Yet He did. God really wanted Israel to follow Him, yet they did not. God desires the whole world to be saved. Yet it will not be. God gives man a free choice to choose right from wrong. And that choice belongs to us. God did not create mindless robots. He created men and woman to willingly serve Him, or to willingly reject Him. It's obvious in the Scriptures, that God often did not get what He wanted.

Your view of God is that he is a failure and cannot achieve his own desires for his own creation. Very sad ...
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:01 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,732,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Your view of God is that he is a failure and cannot achieve his own desires for his own creation. Very sad ...
Your view of God requires you to ignore the Biblical account, an to accept an account that does not exist in the Scriptures. God will never force people to accept Him, or to love Him. God leaves that decision up to us. Don't blame God, for our bad choices.
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:20 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,732,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
To get this thread back on track let's remember it is about why God will have all mankind to be saved "For . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).



ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.

I'M GOING TO ASK AGAIN. WHAT TRANSLATION STATES (GOD WILL HAVE ALL MANKIND TO BE SAVED)?

The correct translation in 1 Timothy chapter 2 verse 3 states.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, (WHO DESIRES ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED) AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

Are you making up your own words here? Please tell us, what translation do you find that wording in?
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